Laptop won't power on unless i plug in AC power

Community Support
153

Not too many other options in the US when a company chooses to ignore their customers unfortunately. The only other thing that tends to work is social media pressure.

I’m pretty blown away by how poorly framework is handling this. Imagine someone in framework having a title like “Head of Customer Experience” but their job is actually the opposite of ensuring good customer experiences and instead telling their customers that it’s “final” and they should sell the machine. That’s like big evil Corp level moves. So early in the company life cycle to have jabs that low. It really bugs me.

154

Did they really say that or did they say you could sell it ??
Don’t forget it just hearsay to me. I would have to put that question to them if I want to use the notion that . . . . in my own query.

Note quoting other people can be a quagmire and taking bits out of context is fraught with missinterpretation.

Even publishing a whole email can be out of context if the whole converstation isn’t seen and looked at with the knowekdge of the time not now.

155

Wow,
I thought my FW would just turnout to be a rare case.
This is not ideal, I take my laptop into network closets and other places where there usually is not an open outlet. Wondering what the minimum power requirements are to get this fired up after a long set.

156

Exactly what problem do you have and have you seen the other topic specifically about ensuring the CMOS battery is fully charged if you want to leave the laptop off for a week or two or three or four :slight_smile: ?

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The problem I had (have?) is it not starting up unless ac power connected.

As a slight aside since a 24 hours charge (see below the topic I started) I have charged it twice for an hour or so just to get back to 80% and like today it started fine.

More info here

There are three main threads as far as I know, this, mine above and one or two more on CMOS inc this…

In my thread above I note the problem I had, the eventual “solution” and how I am progressing day to day whilst waiting a month before doing a 24 hour plus charge again.

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158

Like many I have tried the “proper” way i.e. direct to support. Like many after a while when replying to them I found that I was being ignored, and provided with what appeared to be relevant information, which turned out to be irrelevant and certainly incomplete information. Loose connections, the wrong initial charging process on a DIY machine etc.

I found the incomplete part by reading the other posts I located and by being informed by others.

In no one place (possibly a part of blog by Framework? ) or a post did I find the complete picture, possibly in one post of a “support” response, seen as a long post in italics"…

Found it, this one…

In general Framework didn’t pick up on this problem, as neither they nor Intel not the CMOS software writers had a situation where they didn’t charge a battery for at least 24 hours + then have the PC off for quite a few days.

Add to this problems manifested themselves in different ways, sometimes it took the attachment of a power supply on both sides to fix it (or at least help) sometimes the complete reset procedure (main battery and CMOS battery disconnected) possibly other situations I have missed.

All I can say is read all the posts referred to here, and unlike me ! :slight_smile: try and read ALL of each post before coming to a view.

If there was a way to list just the relevant points (haha, that depends on the individual and users vs Framework info too) then I would make such a post, but the only people who can make such a post are the owners of a forum (community) i.e. Framework.

Unfortunately, but maybe not, it’s not possible for an individual member to own and be the only person posting on a thread.

Maybe someone has a blog somewhere on this topic (problem)

Regards…

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159

Maybe missed June 28th

June 29th 8th day powers up without ac connected

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160

Every day / time you power up the laptop…you’re essentially restarting your test case. Because the test case really is about NOT starting it for x days…then try to start it up.

So, in essence, it’s not 8th day…you’re still on the 1-day since last power up.

(Unless I’ve misunderstood your intended test case)

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161

If powering up the laptop with no ac then I understood the ML 1220 gets no charge including the main battery.

In which case I see no difference in if the laptop is OFF for days or running on batterey for days.

The query I thought was how long can the ML 1220 last without being charged. Framework mention charging for at least 8 hours a week, so even if the laptop is plugged in for an hour or two a week it would have ‘enough’ charge to maybe survive four or five weeks.

If I’m not wrong it’s going to take some time and effort on the part of @Burt to play out such a scenario.

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I thought he/she was intended to replicate the issue…which would require minimal deviation from reported cases / scenario…with or without our understanding.

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I think Burt is testing how long the BIOS battery can continue to power the RTC system without requiring a charge/AC input. This isn’t Schrödinger’s cat :stuck_out_tongue:

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Struggling to understand what isn’t understood.

Yes to the fact that I didn’t state what I was trying to achieve; which is…

BACKGROUND
The original problem I had was the laptop charged to 100% ish, left for more than a day or two then when I attempted to start it it would not.
From new I had never charged it more than long enough to fully charge the main battery. Didn’t know the 24 hour stuff, no policy from Framework on this (probably is; I’m very absent minded).

The number of days left without switching on simply varied depending on my need to use the laptop.

With lots of red herrings the final analysis from reading lots of posts was that the CMOS battery was low capacity, the drain was high, and high enough to cause the laptop to fail to start after a day or three.

I and others went through a not particularly good experience with support, being provided with a number of different possibilities, wrong charging side when new, loose connections, resetting whole machine, measuring CMOS battery level etc.

THE PROBLEM
Lots of different info from Framework, but no official info or ack of the problem (please correct me here, I didn’t read all of the threads right through) but essentially charging main battery just to get it full and switching on several times a week, ends up with “It won’t power on”

THE PROPOSED “SOLUTION” (from Framework)

Charge the laptop for at least 24 hours once a month.

THE TEST
Does charging once a month for at least 24 hours (regardless of charging now and then in between) mean you have avoided the power on problem? That’s it !!

And so the way to run the test,
Charge for 24 hours or so.
Try switching on various times in the (hopefully) 30 days
Leaving the laptop 30 days untouched is unrealistic as I need to use it.
Not charging a little during the 30 days is unrealistic.
How often to check the CMOS battery is too low to allow the Laptop to start. How long is a piece of string?
Essentially short charging spells during the 30 days isn’t going to make much difference (yes I can do the sums if needed)
So… The most practical solution 9for me) is switch it on at least once a day.
See one day f it fails to start
See then if attaching the power supply (the Framework one) allows it to start.
If this fails after it does not start then open the box and check the voltage on the battery (real test would be with the battery connected so on a load.) No utility to check anything CMOS battery related, I checked with FW on this)

If necessary do the full reset stuff, CMOS and main battery disconnected.

In the meantime log (here on my own originated post) the daily situation.

Is this approach right or wrong? Who knows but at least it is something.
Different / Better ideas welcome !

BUT if you suggest a better / different idea TEST IT YOURSELF (please) !! and log the results here.

It does not matter if the idea behind the test is or apparently is wrong as often this is how something new is discovered.

Bye for now :slight_smile:

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PS The “effort” from me is to press the ON button every day :slight_smile:

O and type a few words to record the outcome.

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My understanding of the situation has been:

  1. AC power is required to boot the system if CMOS battery is drained or removed.

  2. CMOS battery drain is unusually high for this laptop and the ML1220 battery is also low in capacity.

  3. There is a Intel 11th gen bug which can be triggered by this low power state requiring a mainboard reset.

  4. CMOS battery only charges when on AC power.

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167

Pretty much a fine summary but

Point 2

i) The designed drain is around 30µA and would allow the battery to last some 24 days. Given that there is a report that someone left their laptop for a month then a more modest battery drain must have been the case. So I wouldn’t say it is “unusually high”

ii) The ML 1220 is used in other laptops so it may not be ‘right’ to call it “low in capacity”, although that term can be applied to a partially charged or faulty battery.

I think the issues arise from the point 4

  1. Not being able to charge from the main battery
    with the consequence of the Intel issue you mention in point 3.
168

Do you have a source for this?

Using 30µA as a basis however against “standard” CR2430 and CR2450 that rate would deplete the CR2430 in about 1 year and a CR2450 in a little over 2 years comapred to the 5-10+ years most people see with these batteries I would say that is high drain.

The capacity of the ML1220 is low compared to traditional CMOS batteries and low for the job it is required to do so IMO seems fair to call it low capacity. I’m not sure the best way to word it.

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By design I don’t mean Framework use I mean manufacturer’s specs

The The CR2430 has a typical drain of 19µA at 2.9V i.e. when it is ‘fully’ charged and would last 1600 hours or around 2 years

Typical drain is not the same as designed and I have no idea of what the typical drain is for the Framework, but if the case of 1 month is to be given credit then the typical drain would be 17/30 = 0.57 / 24 = 0.023 not to far away from the 0.019.

Given that someone has managed to use the laptop after a month’s hiatus, it may well have lasted longer and reached 0.19 :slight_smile:

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I see the ML1220 is rated at capacity of 17mAh at a drain rate of 0.03mA so 24 days at that rate.

Would be good to know the actual drain they are subject in the machine. I might test this myself but it would be a long month…

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Yes I use mine multiple times a day so no testing for me.

Still it is encouraging to see at least one person to say they left if for a month without use or being plugged in and of course the efforts of @burt

Of course what is discouraging is that a casual user may allow the ML 1220 to discharge significantly and have the problems that started this topic :frowning: or worse :scream:

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Hi usernames/all,

A good healthy discussion. Please take my comments as just that, just getting closer to the problem/solution.

Very useful summary of the problem (1,2,3 & 4) , hopefully my aiding clarity not trying to split hairs the following comments…

“1” drained yes, “removed” I honestly don’t know, this may be the case as of old, where you could still run a PC just you had to input the time etc. every time you booted.

“2” the “drain and capacity” are all mixed up with, “used elsewhere without problems” "High drain is due to some (bug?) in the Framework BIOS firmware, etc. "

“3” I have not researched this as yet, but probably so. If the totally locked out sit is possible then this is odd and serious. My neighbour is a section lead at a chip designer, I will ask him.

“4” Correct, but I assume normal on other makes with possibly the same rechargeable CMOS battery. What is a great pity here is that the mobo designers didn’t think to add any monitoring, saving you (us) opening the case to check the CMOS battery state. Numerous sensors exist already on most mobo, another one here would be handy !!

Regarding the length of time a charged battery will last retaining the CMOS at whatever micro amps rate, I think the 24 days vs 30 days stats are within the various tolerances, and even Ooops “I forgot yes I did charge it last Wednesday” and yes I forgot to turn the charger off etc. If we are talking about one or two microamp difference on a battery that may have tolerances of a few % then 24 to 30 days, add the rate at which power is consumed, the state of the battery , different batches of battery etc. etc. seems like a reasonable range.

I am simply going to continue my simple testing.

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