By design I don’t mean Framework use I mean manufacturer’s specs
The The CR2430 has a typical drain of 19µA at 2.9V i.e. when it is ‘fully’ charged and would last 1600 hours or around 2 years
Typical drain is not the same as designed and I have no idea of what the typical drain is for the Framework, but if the case of 1 month is to be given credit then the typical drain would be 17/30 = 0.57 / 24 = 0.023 not to far away from the 0.019.
Given that someone has managed to use the laptop after a month’s hiatus, it may well have lasted longer and reached 0.19
Yes I use mine multiple times a day so no testing for me.
Still it is encouraging to see at least one person to say they left if for a month without use or being plugged in and of course the efforts of @burt
Of course what is discouraging is that a casual user may allow the ML 1220 to discharge significantly and have the problems that started this topic or worse
A good healthy discussion. Please take my comments as just that, just getting closer to the problem/solution.
Very useful summary of the problem (1,2,3 & 4) , hopefully my aiding clarity not trying to split hairs the following comments…
“1” drained yes, “removed” I honestly don’t know, this may be the case as of old, where you could still run a PC just you had to input the time etc. every time you booted.
“2” the “drain and capacity” are all mixed up with, “used elsewhere without problems” "High drain is due to some (bug?) in the Framework BIOS firmware, etc. "
“3” I have not researched this as yet, but probably so. If the totally locked out sit is possible then this is odd and serious. My neighbour is a section lead at a chip designer, I will ask him.
“4” Correct, but I assume normal on other makes with possibly the same rechargeable CMOS battery. What is a great pity here is that the mobo designers didn’t think to add any monitoring, saving you (us) opening the case to check the CMOS battery state. Numerous sensors exist already on most mobo, another one here would be handy !!
Regarding the length of time a charged battery will last retaining the CMOS at whatever micro amps rate, I think the 24 days vs 30 days stats are within the various tolerances, and even Ooops “I forgot yes I did charge it last Wednesday” and yes I forgot to turn the charger off etc. If we are talking about one or two microamp difference on a battery that may have tolerances of a few % then 24 to 30 days, add the rate at which power is consumed, the state of the battery , different batches of battery etc. etc. seems like a reasonable range.
By the way, a figure of ampres, whether milli or micro etc., has no relevance to the charging of a battery unless multiplied by time
The ML 1220 charges at 1000µA per hour. So " two microamp"/hours of charge, may take only 3 seconds of being connected
At 1000µA per hour, (1mA) a flat battery would take 17hours to charge but as the rate decreases from a design max of 1.2mA then a 24 hour period to fully charge makes sense.
So in your case if the ML1220 was down to 40% when you plugged it in then for every hour it may gain another 5% hence adding some context to the sort of critique shown by @Second_Coming
I removed my ML1220 and tested this before posting. Machine will not boot until AC powered with the battery removed.
Looking at my historical CMOS batteries life expectancy with relation to their capacity the FW is using a lot more power. I have a CR2032 (240mAh) from 2009 still doing it’s job…
I’m not sure. Might have to join other forums for laptops with the ML1220 and ask lol.
I think you are testing your used case and that is a valid test to run! I’m debating running a month long test but I would like to wait for BIOS 3.09 so i can also see how shutdown power usage has improved. I know 3.08 is floating about but I’m unsure what is and isn’t changed in that release.
Ok…understood now. If it’s a test of issue avoidance, wouldn’t you need to first establish that your unit does in fact suffer from the issue in the first place? Maybe you’re already done that…I didn’t follow too closely.
e.g. If you’re cycling on a path, and someone tells you (hearsay!) there’s a rock on the path to avoid. You’ll want to first make sure there is in fact a rock on the path…otherwise, your attempted maneuver to avoid the rock might be for an imaginary rock.
Not trying to be a pain or anything…just pointing out what I see / don’t see. Ignore me.
In theory yes although Framework recommend at least 6 hours per week, and the month may be less that three weeks. 23 days I would consider max. But hey someone has said the managed over? a month, so 32 days maybe
I thought obstacles were to test ingenuity not to avoid.
Though avoiding a shot from a fleeing bank robber, it may be safer never to walk down a street with a bank.
But I’m not going to actively test my theories I will just see how they fair with experience.
I’m not looking forward to any experience where I have to remove the ML 1220 to this machine up and running. Just plugging in with a ‘full’ main battery will be embarassing.
My path seems pretty clear as I walk it multiple times a day and I’ve given up the bike.
To follow up on this which I didn’t respond to directly…
Every day / time you power up the laptop…you’re essentially restarting your test case.
No.
Assumption(s)
A. Let us say we charge for 24 hours and so the CMOSB is fully charged.
B. The CMOSB discharges at the SAME RATE regardless of the PC being on every day, once a week, OR not at all for 30 days.
C. Unless you attach ac then the CMOSB gets little charge only affecting the days before Armageddon by say a day.
If these are accepted then the test does not reset every day?
The “reset” is when you charge the CMOSB (in the test case for 24+ hours)
Switching the PC on does not take any more power from the CMOSB than if you just leave it for 30 days.
The difference with switching it on most days is that you see the point at which it won’t switch on.
Waiting for 30 days, apart from being impractical does not get you much if any useful information?
I HOPE ! On the day it does not start then I can at least do one of the following.
X. Get it to start just by connecting ac power.
Y. Open the case and measure the CMOSB voltage
To reiterate, testing most days isn’t restarting the test. If my logic is wrong then shout, I’m open minded about this if there is a logical argument to say that I’m re-starting the test then shout !!
Unless If you attach ac then the CMOSB gets little charge only affecting the days before Armageddon by say a day.
It’s that little charge bit, as I said plugging in for 1 hour can charge the CMOS Bat by 5% so you may want to take that into account as that would extend by a day or more maybe.
hey @Burt in your testing, are you keeping it unplugged from AC power for the entire duration? My thought is perhaps the main battery will drain prior to the CMOS battery if you are using it daily. Of course we do not expect the laptop to boot if there is no power in the main battery.
I think this is the reason the frustration was being raised by the users in the first place - for folks who do not use the laptop every day, we have found the laptop does not boot even if there is 60-80%+ charge left in the main battery.
Your test is different, but still a good data point to understand if the CMOS battery pulls any charge from the main battery when the laptop is powered ON. The current theory is that the CMOS battery only seems to charge from AC power so your test may be able to confirm this theory… assuming the main battery holds out…
I am occasionally charging the main battery, my occasional use can sometimes change but charging say 30 minutes at most every five days. I have not checked the charging calculations a few others have posted. These may also be affected by the variable charge rate available from the Framework supplied charger. I have yet to look into this, but I will wait to see how long it lasts before it refuses to start without ac power.
Originally I almost certainly didn’t charge the machine for 24 hours or more just enough to get 100% ish on the main battery. I found that regardless of the main battery state which was anything from 60% to 90% it didn’t boot without ac power. I didn’t record times etc. as not awre of the problem until I posted here.
I am not sure the CMOSB ever? gets any power from the main battery? A new one on me.
The occasional charge I give the main battery I don’t think gives the CMOSB much of a boost and so this is an unknown. I will complete this as as is, then look at maybe a slightly different approach. A lot may depends on the charger and its varying power …
From here…
" With PPS, the adapter can also be used as a programmable power supply in increments of 20mV and 50mA to further improve efficiency on devices that support it."
As and when I will find out if the varying rate available affects the time it takes to charge the CMOSB.
The one good suggestion I got from a post I just made on checking the CMOSB charging and voltage was to get a blank module (like the USB etc) and run wires from the battery to it to measure the voltage day by day etc. Maybe invalidates the warranty though.
30 minutes every five days is 0.5mAh and as the CMOS bat uses 0.015mAh max/30 min you are providing enough for 16hours
This would in theory extend the ML 1220 power source three times
i.e the ML 1220 only has to do 8 hours work a day
If can do a month in exteeme cases you could be OK for 3months
According to specs and Framework you can multiply the 2 /3 weeks by 3 so 6 to 9 weeks.
No. If it did that it would discharge before the main battery.
Not unknown. Calculated.
*The battery charges at 1mA/h when it is not highly charged 1.2mA/max
30 minutes at that rate is 0.5mA/h and the max drain is 0.03mA/h
Not an issue the variable rate is to charge the main battery, the CMOS battery has it’s own reduced supply and is not affected by the charge rate of the main battery…
Each battery has it’s own controls to draw what it wants, the adapter does not decide this.
or worse 