One of the reasons companies like Framework don’t discuss future releases is that it stalls near-term sales. People wont buy the old thing when they know the new thing is coming around the corner. Mismanagement leads to the ‘Osborne effect’. I’m curious to know peoples thoughts on whether Frameworks current capabilities and sales structure causes the Osborne effect regardless.
I want to buy a Framework 16 (FW16), but I can’t justify the upfront cost when similarly spec’d laptops are currently less than half the price while competitors are clearing out stock/school sales. Framework keeps the price of an item relatively flat until it is replaced. Because of this, I’m coming to the conclusion that the best value is to be at either of the two extremes of the items lifetime. You either pre-order to get the new item ASAP, or you get a previous-gen refurb. The FW16 isn’t in either of those places at the moment so I’m going to hold tight until gen 2 is available for pre-order. However, if everyone were to think the same as me, it will cause issues with FW quickly fulfilling all the pre-orders. Kind of a boom-bust cycle.
I have no idea if sales for the FW16 have crashed down. With long development times, does Framework suffer from the Osborne effect regardless? Does their customer focused service, repair policy and reputation for being a good company give them some kind of protection? I doubt I’m the only one that is considering delaying my purchase in the current situation. If not, why are you investing in the FW16 right now (this is a genuine question)?
I think being prudent with your money is wise and I don’t begrudge anyone that. I encourage it.
That said, if you want to look at Framework with the visor of competing laptop products based solely on components and nothing else, Framework will always loose on the price point. This is because this ignores the main reason for the cost. Modularity, durability, repairability, and upgradability. All things that are not a part of the equation with nearly EVERY other laptop manufacturer out there.
For this reason, I supported Framework because they are the change in the tech world I want to see. I want to see companies really care about their customers, not just use expensive advertising campaigns to pander to them, while their products, designed to break, do.
However, buying a Framework product whether it is brand new or on sale and refurbished is a win for Framework. Their goal is to sell you the last laptop you’ll ever need.
I didn’t go with the Framework 16 but with my first Framework 13 instead, but the reason I went with it regardless of where in the lifecycle the product (or rather the CPU in this case) is, was because of the upgradability.
I went with the Core Ultra series, which is technically a new Framework model, but Intel’s new Core Ultra gen 2 is right around the corner and AMD’s new Ryzen AI 300 CPUs are already out, so I could get a way more performant laptop from a different manufacturer for the same price if I just picked one with Ryzen AI 300. But because it’s upgradable, I decided to go with the lower-end Core Ultra 5 125H, and the plan is to later sell the mainboard (or reuse it as a home server of sorts, should I want to, we’ll see) and upgrade the mainboard for presumably anything between 500,-€ and 900,-€. That’s still expensive, but after selling the old part it’s not that big of a deal I feel like, especially if SODIMM’s are still supported (and if not, I guess I’ll have to sell my RAM and buy new RAM as well).
Still, the earliest point where this way is cheaper than just going for a laptop from a different manufacturer is probably the second upgrade (so the third mainboard). So it wasn’t just a financial decision, it was also out of interest for the Framework ecosystem and “mission statement”.
I like the view and theory you describe in your post.
For me personally, I pre-ordered the FW16 and am glad I did. Sometimes I think I should have waited for a better model, but then the upgradability comes to play. And that right there gave me reassurance to buy it, I can alway upgrade it if i wish. You can now even see that with the GPU model, If you doubted initially it is now 100 euro more expensive to get a new one. However there are already some people who don’t need theirs anymore and sell them for a reasonble amount.
And if you strictly talk about the costst, then it is indeed better to buy a off the shelf laptop for less money. But then you will not contribute to this wonderfull idea of upgradeability and will be (more) stuck to your initial choice of components.
I think what you describe can be applied generally to any product with tight refresh cycles, like PC components or phones. But you’re right, in those cases you can see companies apply a very gradual price decrease schedule over the lifespan of the product to entice sales.
I think, Framework can look expensive when you look at the price of raw components it has, but it is also very unique, which could and should command a premium, especially for a company that needs to do future R&D.
I mean, compared to Mac hardware, FW is still cheaper even if you don’t include repairability, so there’s probably enough of a market to support Framework’s pricing strategy. And at least FW lowers the price on older stuff - don’t see that in Apple land
Overall, I’ve heard this advice from many places - you should get a computer when you need it. If you will try to time the purchase, there will always be some new thing to look forward to, and some discount in the future as well.
It’s not really accurate to compare a Framework product to a Dell, Lenovo, Razer, etc. on the basis of CPU + GPU + RAM + SSD + whatever spec. The Framework has features that none of these comparable models offer at all, i.e. modularity, repairability, upgradeability, open source, etc. If that stuff isn’t worth anything to you, then sure, why pay for it? But if it is worth something to you, suddenly that cost difference is actually a pretty darn good value for the extras you’re getting, especially when you consider there is no real direct competition.
I understand the benefits of Framework with it’s repair and support from the company (the keyboard fix is an excellent example).
Its true that technology companies have tight release cycles. It’s also true that Frameworks unique upgradability does have value that is worth paying for. However, I feel like that price ratio has it’s limits for most people. Maybe that’s my mistake… Framework isn’t intended for most people (which is fine).
What I’m wondering is if anyone is buying a FW16 now, or holding until the gen 2? From comments in this thread, I’m starting to think that maybe the company is more shielded by the Osborne effect. Maybe this is because of it’s upgradability… Just kind of surprised since the buy in cost is proportionally so high right now.
Not in the market for a new computer now. My Batch 1 pre-ordered 11th Gen FW13 is still going strong. I did replace the CMOS battery, and put in the louder speakers.
I got the hinge set for it, but never put them in.
So I am the opposite of the need of Framework. The computer I have meets my needs, it even runs Flight Simulator, albeit with a warning message.
I’ve considered getting a newer model, but then what do I do with the older one? I’ve had too many other things pulling money out of my wallet, so not in the market to replace something that works.
Happy customer, but not a good one, I suppose.
Well that’s kinda my point. It isn’t actually high. It seems that way when you just look at the traditional specs that we’re used to using to compare otherwise fairly equivalent laptops, but in the Framework case that ignores a lot of things.
So in my case, I spent a total of about $2600 to build my FW16. I’m having a tough time spec’ing out a conventional laptop with the same components (I don’t even know how to shop for new laptops anymore!), but the closest I can get are some HP Zbook workstation laptops that are around $1900 on Newegg. Now give that an aluminum body, modular ports, removable GPU, etc. etc. and that $700 difference really seems like a bargain, to me at least. Perhaps you can share a better comparison you’ve looked at?
Regardless, to answer what I think is your larger question, or rather to speculate on it because I don’t have Framework’s sales numbers either, yeah I bet sales have slowed. Of course a lot of factors are involved, including the fact that most people still have no idea Framework even exists, but surely there are holdouts among us waiting for the next generation of CPU’s or CAMM2 memory or whatever is on their horizon. Is the number of those holdouts significant? No way to know, but my guess is no for a few reasons. Just like how it’s unfair to compare price with traditional laptops, I think it might be even more inappropriate to apply trends such as the Osborne effect to a product with such a small ecosystem around it. There are very different things going on here that I imagine have a much greater influence at this stage.
Exactly - it doesn’t matter if it is a car, TV, laptop, or stove, if you need a new one buy it now. There will always be a new faster/cheaper/better/more efficient model just around the corner, ready to be announced the day after you buy yours.
I think Framework has been eating most of the additional cost due to their business model (R&D for modularity and lack of recurrent purchase because their product are made to last, etc) and this is the main reason why they don’t discount their products at the end of the replacement cycle as aggressively as other brands do.
Their are still a small business and they still have a lot to prove before they get a chance to grow and be more mainstream. I am sure their profit margin are less than most of their competitors and it is required or they would be too expensive and would sell even less. It’s a delicate balance with additional risks to manage.
Yes they are not cheap … but you buy into the philosophy or you don’t.
I got mine a month ago - as soon as the laptops started shipping without delay after the order. Don’t care about the fact that it’s already halfway through its generation - my last laptop (XPS 9700) served me for 4 years and only died because a bad dock fried the USB controllers on the motherboard.
I am a compulsive upgrader, so I’m sure I won’t be able to resist basically replacing the whole laptop in the next four years, if they release compelling stuff, as currently the GPU power is Meh, the CPU and BIOS are kinda underbaked, and I could see them doing OLED and/or touchscreen, etc etc. But this is the point for me - it’s FUN. It’s a thing you don’t see outher people doing, even thinking to be possible. (Oh and I’m not a Louis Rossmann fan, but I definitely agree with him on many points)
I’ll say that one of the reasons I didn’t buy the dGPU module was because I may be able to get the newer one later down the line and I don’t really need (or necessarily want) the dGPU right now. There are other reasons as well, but this was part of it.
One thing that appeals to me about the framework is knowing that I can buy current gen and then upgrade it down the line without replacing the whole device, which in my mind mitigates the risk of buying a soon-to-be-“obsolete” device.
Oh, I’d be surprised if they are profitable at all right now as a company. I think they’re pricing extremely competitively, probably knowing that they can’t escape the component-based price comparison.
These are all really interesting answers and its great to see that there is a community that fully supports what Framework is trying to do.
I do intend to get a FW16, but I’m going to wait until the pre-order of the next gen. My laptop is slowly dying, but its not dead yet so I can wait.
Just for context I live in the UK and I’d like a FW16 without a GPU (I need the screen space, USB ports and num pad for the type of work I do). To get the spec I want it would cost…
Base unit £1400.
Expansion cards and num pad £70.
RAM £65 (I dont own any SODIMM DDR5)
NVME (Using what I already have, but for context its worth £90).
Power supply (Using what I have, but its worth noting you can get a 140W supply for £25 if you don’t need the GPU).
That’s £1535 total buy-in ($2020 USD).
I’ve been comparing the current buying proposition to… Minisforum V3 (£1000, $1320) as it would also replace my tablet, but the inability to have it work as an actual LAPtop makes it a no go. Also, no num pad. Asus Vivobook S 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Ryzen 9 8945HS (£730 $960, but was on offer to £580 $760 recently). Asus Vivobook S 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Ryzen AI 9 (£960, $1260 with 20% off code). Legion Slim 5 Gen 9 32GB ram, 1TB SSD, RTX4060 (£1050 $1380 with discounts that I get from working at a University).
That is what I bought, for similar reasons. I did stretch to the more expensive CPU …
That won’t get much RAM, I think I paid about that for a pair of 8GB to get me started.
Just be a bit careful with the 140W units, the FL16 seems to have problems with them. People are claiming it is the laptop BIOS, but I’m not totally convinced, I think some of the problem is the way the power supply is reporting its capability.
I think Framework focuses a bit too much on repairability and should focus more on the expansion cards and customizability. I personally don’t mind spending more on a laptop even if there are other better prices for the same spec. I was looking at getting a Dell XPS but they only have USB-C like people don’t have external mice. I was looking at a ROG G16 which remembers people need normal USB ports but it doesn’t have a number pad.
The Framework 16 had everything I wanted. Six expansion card slots for whatever I want to do with them and an optional numpad. I have a particular use case for Micro SD cards and having multiple slots for them is great. You have physical shut offs for the webcam and mic for privacy paranoid people like me and the easy option to just remove them entirely if that switch isn’t enough. Amazing.
The Osborne effect probably doesn’t pay too much of a role in it now. Aside from jumps to new memory architecture we are seeing kind of predictable gains every CPU generation. You get maybe 5-10% more compute, maybe you save a few watts while doing it, and that is about it. I don’t think the mass market really gives a shit about AI features at all. We are going to see a grand battle in the coming 10-15 years between x86, ARM, and RISC-V and that will be neat and maybe revive more of the Osborne effect, but for now I don’t know that it matters a whole lot.
My dude who pissed in your cereal? Here I am gushing over the F16 and you would think I had just slapped it in the face.
The expansion cards being small variables is a huge part of what makes Framework great because people absolutely love customization in their product. Imagine that laptops were sandwiches and you had to choose which shop to go to. Every other sandwich shop, the Dell, HP, ASUS, MSI, etc, sure they have a fair number of sandwiches to sell but they won’t let you choose what you want on them; you’re stuck with an inflexible menu. And then here comes the Framework sandwich shop and you can customize it any way you want. Don’t like pickles? Leave them off. Love tomato and onion? Add them on. What about the type of bread? You want five HDMI ports? I have never wanted a banana bread sandwich filled with cottage cheese but by God Framework will let you order it and I salute them for it.
Wow, completely opposite for me. I don’t really care about expansion cards as long as I have enough USB ports. The expansion cards are just nice as something easily replaceable when a USB port breaks for soem reason.
I also think the input deck stuff of the Framework 16 is stupid. These small panels can bend, stick up, or create other issues and are a gimik in my opinion. I’d be just fine with a good (better than now) keyboard and touchpad.
I really want something that is well supported and repairable. Being able to upgrade is also nice, of course, but I don’t need tons of customization options.
I think it’s tough to compare some of those machines. Maybe the Legion is the best comparison to anything you can get from Framework right now, but I think you still get your point across. There’s definitely a premium that’s not accounted for in the component list. But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it’s not like you’re getting nothing for that extra cash.
But yeah, whether or not the performance difference actually matters, the 7000 series is old news now. You don’t wanna pay the Framework premium and still only get last year’s components. I think that’s more than fair, though at the speed Framework can move right now, I think they’re going to remain just slightly behind the curve for the near future so I wouldn’t hold out too long.
Though back to your original point, I’d hypothesize that the fact that they can’t keep up with CPU vendors’ releases like the big boys can won’t create sales cycles as much as just prevent a certain population from buying altogether because Framework is just not going to be able to ship the latest combination of numbers and letters while the hype is still high, so those people are just never going to be satisfied. Those customers’ priorities are the latest and greatest, not the unique and at times abstract stuff that the Framework premium gets you. Someday hopefully they’ll be able to deliver both, but until then I think they’re losing those hardcore holdouts altogether right now, not just capturing them only in pre-orders. So maybe you’re in the sweet spot of willing to pay the price as long as you get something relatively recent, but all those people who only want the latest and want it before everyone else, the people who probably create the Osborne effect in the first place, they just aren’t buying Frameworks right now at all. That’s my guess.
