I’d really like to understand what is the appeal with the trackpoint?
My own opinion and use of them has been unfavourable, mainly because I can’t click with it or it over/under (Steers?) Shoots and I end up using the trackpad or a mouse.
I am however, open to hearing where the want for it comes from 
Best Regards,
Varg
What is to understand there?
Different people are different, use computers in different ways, and have different preferences.
The overshooting/undershooting is not really a problem, you get used to the device after a while but while for some people it’s easy and convenient to use for others it’s the opposite.
Of course, but why?
Is it the textured feel of the trackpoint rubber on one’s finger? Is that it is in fact the inability to click with it that makes it good as perhaps the trackpad does not agree with the pressure applied by the User.
Gimme the details, friend!
Best Regards,
Varg
The trackpoint allows the user to type, click, scroll, and manipulate the cursor without repositioning their hands. For workflows that involve using both the mouse and the keyboard, this is a time saver.
When I first started using a trackpoint, it took me a couple of weeks of practice to get comfortable with it. In the very beginning, I set the cursor speed to a slower setting in order to avoid over/undershooting, and I gradually increased the setting as I became more proficient with it. Eventually, I was able to manipulate the trackpoint accurately at the highest speed setting.
The three mouse buttons between the keyboard and the trackpad are how you click while using the trackpoint. You can also hold down on the middle mouse button to scroll with the trackpoint.
Ah, I see, so it’s a tad like touch typing but you get a mouse in there without having your hand(s) leave keyboard often?
I agree completely that there is probably a good amount of ‘calibration’ time needed to be able to properly utilise it, the same thing goes probably for most people when it comes to using a regular trackpad in a laptop, or new mouse even.
Best Regards,
Varg
Yes! I’ve never looked at it that way, but I think that analogy makes sense. When learning to touch type, the user must actively avoid looking at their hands. This slows them down in the short run, but makes them a faster typist in the long run. In the same way, the trackpoint has a learning curve that makes the user slower at first, with a similar payoff for combined mouse/keyboard workflows once the user becomes comfortable using it.
I am really not sure about this. As I already posted earlier in this thread, my 4 year old daughter got the hang of using the trackpoint in about 5 minutes. She became proficient enough after an hour of dragging’n’dropping code blocks doing coding lessons on code.org. I also gave her my work MacBook to do it on other occasions, she learned the touchpad as quickly as the trackpoint. So I’d say one can learn to use it very quickly, if there’s desire.
casual already explained the main advantage. Besides being a time saver, it’s also a wrist saver. Less chance of RSI (repetitive strain injury) / CTS (carpal tunnel syndrome) since there’s less hand/finger movement needed to accomplish the same tasks.
I’m equally proficient with a touchpad (on my work MacBook) and trackpoint (on my personal laptops, all of which are oldish ThinkPads), but I’d say the trackpoint still has the edge on touchpad. Another pro of TrackPoint: middle button scrolling. Super convenient feature which I do all the time. Allows you to read a long article / book while using the barest minimum of effort to scroll. Another con of touchpad: even with the best touchpad and good user skill, sometimes you end up doing a wrong gesture, or the touchpad sometimes registers an accidental click when you don’t mean it. This happens from time to time on my work MacBook, annoying me every time. Never happens with trackpoint (I have the touchpad fully disabled in the driver settings on all my ThinkPads). Another indirect con of touchpad - since touchpads need to be rather large to be convenient, they tend to occupy the lot of palmrest space. This is the reason laptop manufacturers don’t use 7-row keyboards anymore, they got rid of the 7th row to make more space for the touchpad. For an example of a 7-row keyboard, look at ThinkPad X220 or any other model in the *20 generation, then compare it with X230 or any other model in the *30 generation. Most of my ThinkPads are *30 models retrofitted with the *20 keyboard (so-called “classic keyboard mod”). If Lenovo didn’t try to appeal to touchpad users, they could have kept the more convenient 7-row keyboard, but they sacrificed it, all because of the touchpad.
The last laptop I carried on the go had a trackpoint and it just felt so much better than a trackpad. I don’t get why people would every question a trackpoint when on a trackpad you’d have to repeatedly swipe to go across the screen (or raise your sensitivity).
The only thing I don’t like with how Lenovo implements the trackpoint is that they also pair it with an over-the-trackpad set of mouse buttons. I prefer to use the track point with my pointer and my thumb on the bottom set of mouse keys. The top set are just bloat and make less room for a bigger trackpad (which I’d still use for more precise movement)
Back on my last laptop, I was even playing FPS games with the trackpoint with accuracy
Not getting it. I tried putting my index finger on the trackpoint and my thumb on the below-the-trackpad left button. It feels quite awkward, but perhaps possible. But reaching the right button is really super awkward and uncomfortable. How do you do it? I find the index finger on the trackpoint and thumb on the three buttons immediately below to be a very natural position.
If you are using Linux, how about emulating mouse by keyboard instead of the trackpoint in the meantime?
You can use ydotool.
On Fedora 36, the installation is like this.
$ sudo dnf install ydotool
$ sudo systemctl enable ydotool
$ sudo systemctl start ydotool
Unfortunately, the ydotool needs the root permission (sudo) to run it. The sway config is as following. the Mod = $mod2 is Alt key.
$ cat ~/.config/sway/config
...
set $mod2 Mod
...
#
# Mouse emulation
#
# Left click (down then up)
bindsym $mod2+n exec "sudo ydotool click 0xC0"
# Right click (down then up)
bindsym $mod2+m exec "sudo ydotool click 0xC1"
# Move left
bindsym $mod2+h exec "sudo ydotool mousemove -- -30 0"
# Move down
bindsym $mod2+j exec "sudo ydotool mousemove -- 0 30"
# Move up
bindsym $mod2+k exec "sudo ydotool mousemove -- 0 -30"
# Move right
bindsym $mod2+l exec "sudo ydotool mousemove -- 30 0"
...
You can also use ydotool on X Window-based window manager too. But I see an issue around a behavior on i3. You can also use traditional xdotool too. Maybe the setting is like this. I haven’t tested it yet. But possibly it works.
$ sudo dnf install xdotool
$ cat ~/.config/i3/config
...
set $mod2 Mod
...
#
# Mouse emulation
#
# Left click
bindsym $mod2+n exec "xdotool click 1"
# Right click
bindsym $mod2+m exec "xdotool click 3"
# Move left
bindsym $mod2+h exec "xdotool mousemove_relative -- -30 0"
# Move down
bindsym $mod2+j exec "xdotool mousemove_relative -- 0 30"
# Move up
bindsym $mod2+k exec "xdotool mousemove_relative -- 0 -30"
# Move right
bindsym $mod2+l exec "xdotool mousemove_relative -- 30 0"
...
You know, there is ‘mouse keys’ support in xkb since eternity.
I see. Maybe this one.
As I mentioned in the “sliding clicks” thread that was yearning for physical mouse buttons, I think the best idea would be either a touchpad and buttons designed as two pieces that fit together during self-assembly but in a way that the buttons can be positioned either above or below the touchpad, or an all-in-one touchpad + buttons that is specifically designed so that it can be rotated 180 degrees during self-assembly combined with a bios setting or similar (maybe even a hardware way, like an under-the-touchpad switch?) to specify whether the physical buttons are above or below the touchpad so as to correctly orient the touchpad as well as the button positions.
This would then satisfy both use-cases with a single design.
On a similar note, I always thought about using a trackpoint for use of analog movement like you get with an analog stick rather than the typical digital movement from typical keyboard keys.
MouseKeys is a crutch for when no other pointing device is available. You can walk with a crutch, but not run. TrackPoint is pressure-sensitive. You can be very fast and very accurate as well, all in a very natural way. Can’t do both with MouseKeys.
To attract TrackPoint-loving ThinkPad fans (not all ThinkPad fans are TrackPoint lovers, though), Framework would have to come up with a TrackPoint that is as close as possible in all regards (position, location of clicky keys, operation) to how it is on a ThinkPad. Any alternative arrangement would leave TrackPoint lovers dissatisfied, and non-TrackPoint lovers will probably not use it anyway.
I am not holding my breath that this will happen at all in the current iteration of the Framework laptop, but if there’s sufficient interest, perhaps they will consider it when they will eventually decide it’s time to design a new framework (laptop body).
This is the main benefit - back when my employer issued Thinkpads, I basically stopped using the mouse and went with the trackpoint 99% of the time. Once they stopped, I went back to using the mouse as my primary input method.
I’d also point out that the quality of trackpoints vary greatly. My current (work-issued) Dell has a trackpoint, but it’s so much worse than that of a Thinkpad - the grip texture is off, the stick is not as responsive, and physical buttons are placed badly (because they also accommodate a large touch pad below it). The original IBM Thinkpads put a lot of R&D into the ergonomics, and it showed; Lenovo seems to maintain those qualities (though they, too, attempted to get rid of it a while back).
It looks like a lot of people are missing some essential facts behind the motivation for this thread.
We want a TrackPoint equivalent or better.
Dell & HP have both made laptops with pointing sticks. They are terrible. They overshoot, are difficult to manipulate, and can be stressful to operate. TrackPoints are solid-state devices with an applied force gauge. You can tap a TrackPoint to click, and you can make both subtle and extreme movements fairly easily with a couple weeks or less of practice.
The TrackPoint needs to be in the center of the laptop for the benefit to work.
Discussions about the percentage of computer users that use TrackPoints are mostly irrelevant to the usability and benefit of the device. Most people will stick with what they are familiar with, be it the touchpad or an external mouse. TrackPoints are exceedingly rare…there is one line of computers that comes with them in the entire world. People who have never used one and don’t know how they work will likely never use it again after touching it for the first time out of curiosity, and those who have used HP/Dell machines will be actively repelled by them. That said, economically speaking, they probably do not make any sense.
“Many” is uncountable, so refuting someone’s claim that “many” use them is pointless.
Lastly, as a TrackPoint fan, and current owner of a now one year old Framework Laptop, I agree that nothing else compares like many of fellow TrackPoint fans. I hate touchpads, even the Framework one, and an external mouse is not very portable. I used my TrackPoint for everything - I disabled the touchpad in the OS/BIOS on all of the ThinkPads I used, and I only use an external mouse when my laptop is docked.
Oh! One more thing: The Framework Laptop is also a product that aligns with the ideals of many of the most dedicated ThinkPad users…quality construction, repairability, extensibility, expandability, customizability, and community. This is the reason why there are so many of us who have come to Framework looking for the things we love.
Sadly, I agree with you from Framework’s perspective; it’s probably not worth the cost of developing another SKU and complicating their pipeline. However, given Framework’s modular design, there’s a nonzero chance of someday having a third-party Trackpoint keyboard (which would likely require different hinges due to the height). All it takes is just one nerd with a kickstarter.
Oh. So there is news, but it’s basically “this isn’t going to happen.”
That’s disappointing, as it basically renders this permanently unusable for and thus unavailable to me. I would have dearly loved to support this venture, but if I can’t make use of it, all the upgradability and modularity in the world is useless. 
Chances are slim.
If you think about how trackpoint is implemented, not only does it require a new keyboard assembly, it also require a new palmrest assembly (with a drilled hole for the trackpoint).
Regarding the debate between Trackpoint and Trackpad, I personally have no preference. I’d like to have both options, although if I have to pick one I will pick the pad. The reason is simple.
The point is Trackpoint only controls acceleration. By this nature you cannot achieve the same amount of precision no matter by how much you argue.
[size=“small”]
so please stop.
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Trackpad on the other hand controls displacement. You drag your finger by X amount and the cursor move Y amount. Every single time, no matter the speed/direction, or the starting position.
For rough maneuvers, a joystick/trackpoint might be more comfortable, but a trackpad/trackball/mouse (that measures displacement) will be much more precise.
The only thing I like about all trackpoints are their discrete triple hardware buttons. You can literally CAD with it. Yes please.
Regardless I bought a tiny hall-effect trackball and is going to play around with it. Maybe I will make a mini wireless trackball.