Personally (price-dependant) I think the 12 is a stellar idea. Capture a younger audience, and therefore future market, with the college crowd etc.
The Mini-ITX mobo is a bit left field, though I’ll admit I’m desperately trying to figure out a use for one as it looks neat. I do wonder if this was some kind of minimum-order requirement with AMD, or a placeholder for a later FW16 upgrade? As I understand it, chip vendors require you to sign up to purchase batches of chips… this might be Framework bidding for capacity now in a simple product, that they can later switch to a more complex one once all the design details are fleshed out.
I think it is not the 16” model we should worry about just yet but a more venerable chassis in framework lineup.
Perhaps the new introduction of the 12” creates the likelihood that the 13” model will be totally re-engineered in another year. I envision a slightly thicker version possibly with some 16” features, ultra-low mechanical keyboard, more cooling and battery: so as to fit more evenly between the two more recent models and restore it as the “sweet spot” of the range.
Hopefully it will be backward compatible with parts from the current 13” model (a bulkier chassis could accommodate shims to make your old stuff fit!).
I’ve given up on that, I doubt I’m going to invest any further in this company. The money spent is a sunk cost so I’ll keep using my FW 13 but I’ll switch to literally anyone else (likely System76) once OpenSIL and TB5 become a thing. FW has had actual years now to implement a path to Coreboot and they’ve done cursory measures and little else. Firmware support continues to be a shambles.
I figured I’d add my $0.02. I understand where everyone is coming from, but I can also see the other side. First, for people lamenting the fact that new form factors mean even more products with little part crossover. I don’t see a problem at all with having a variety of various products with little part interoperability, as long as all are repairable, will full parts support. In fact, I think it makes sense to have several product options, rather than trying to make a one-size-fits-all device that will end up pleasing very few. A LOT of people have been asking Framework to make a tablet or a 2-in-1 type of device with a touch-screen. I don’t see any issue with having the FW12 along side the 13 and 16 in the product lineup. At least, as long as they continue to support all of them.
As for the FW 16, it’s still pretty new and was a massive launch for them. I remember when pre-orders were open, they kept having to add more and more batches, pushing the pre-order cycle further and further out. It was nuts. I know it stings to have only a new, mechanical key to be announced for it, but I just don’t see how that translates to it being discontinued. Again, it was a MASSIVE launch for them with pre-orders stretching to 20+ batches, if I remember correctly. I could only speculate as to why they haven’t yet announced any new CPU/mainboards or any new dGPU. I have my suspicions, but we’ll see. Either way, I’d be shocked if they discontinued/abandoned the 16 just because there wasn’t a major announcement about it today.
The “desktop?” I can get why people are well below whelmed, but I can also understand that Framework saw the potential of the chip and wanted to make a product with it. Eh, whatever. I don’t have a whole lot to say about it. It’s a neat product. I hope it works out for them and doesn’t spread them too thin.
This summarizes it quite nice, I think the desktop is a way for them to get more sales in business and expand their audience while doubling as a neat product for prosumers/homelabers.
If we are voicing…requests for Framwork moving forward, here are mine (assuming anyone cares, lol):
Focus on support. I know it’s tough and you will NEVER please everyone. Some people are just going to have bad experiences, for whatever reason. But I hope they take some of the criticism to heart and try to ensure that support personnel take the time to read through the entire support email chain before replying or asking questions, etc. I know it takes some extra time, but I think it could save some time and back and forth, not to mention saving some frustration. It’s very frustrating to be asked the same question or be asked for the same pictures for a second or third time. I believe they have said they are working on improving these things, but I also believe they still have room for improvement.
I hope they can come up with a satisfactory resolution to the thermal issues on the FW16 for everyone affected. I’ve already swapped my thermal paste myself. No big deal for me. But it may be a bigger deal for some, and I hope people can get their issues resolved soon and in a manner that works for them.
Finally, I hope Framework continues to improve their BIOS/Firmware update process. I know some folks have been pretty disillusioned. I hope Framework offers some renewed assurances, and follows through.
I started watching the 2nd gen event feeling excited, and left feeling confused. It felt more like an AMD marketing event then a launch event.
And then their actually interesting launch, the FW12, I felt they barely even talked about.
While the loss of modularity sucks, crunch the numbers and tell me you can build something with that much performance for the same price at the same form factor, I doubt it. How many GPUs would you need to get close to 100gb of vram? Just between an ITX MOBO, a high L3 cache CPU, RAM, and a single mid-range GPU you are already at the $2k Mark.
128GB slower MT ram: $700
High L3 CPU: at least $450
ITX MOBO: $200
Mid range GPU $500-750
We are not including the PSU, case, or any cooling yet. A DIY would perform better for gaming, but would perform worse for a lot of other tasks.
I do wish they had figured out a way to make CAMM modules to work. That would be Ideal and aligned with FW a lot more. But from a business standpoint it kinda makes sense. I am guessing there was a lot of pressure from AMD to build anything.
I think their “flagship” is still the 13. While the 16 is more capable it is not front and center IMO. I doubt they will discontinue it.
I think the issue about more GPUs has to deal more with Nvidia shortages and AMD delaying their new lineup. Remember they have to make these chips for OEMs to use them. Nvidia had a paper launch. AMD delayed their GPU launch.
They could have put the 395+ on the 16th but people would have to let go of the modular ram for this one (for many that is a hard pass).
I think that it is impossible to please everyone but giving your costumers options will still get you sales. Maybe for the 395+ we couldn’t get the modular RAM but AMD sees the attention and figures a way to make CAMM modules work for the next one?
I disagree. This model now looks to me like a missfit: it is supposed to sit between the 12" and 16" but sits too close to the former and leaves a big gap to the latter.
When the 12" launches and - I am sure - outsells the 13" several times over, Framework will probably replace the latter with something that better fills its niche. You read it here first:).
From what I heard, using socketed RAM on the desktop board would reduce performance so far that it wouldn’t make sense for that product. perhaps in the future it could be done.
I agree wholeheartedly that GPU supply is most likely to be why we haven’t seen as much on the 16 inch front. I might be too naive on that, but of all companies, framework is most likely to be held up by this. they are a niche product and that is always going to affect when they get their hands on new hardware.
It is just the reality that expensive, professional quality items are less frequently refreshed than consumer grade stuff.
Also, for the very first customers passing a year of FW16 ownership, this would be quite soon to upgrade (most customers would actually have received their machines more recently), and in fact something of an admission that the original specification was inadequate.
There was a huge backlog for the FW16 when it came out, it would be bad if they were pushing out an upgrade for a product people were still waiting to recieve.
I don’t think they’re abandoning the platform, it’s too early to think that IMO. And Framework 16 is their most versatile platform, they could do so much with it in particular.
But want to correct you here - the dual M.2 module was in production about a year before they released it (shown in a Linus Tech Tips video). What was blocking its release was a BIOS update to 3.04 which turned out to not be good so it never exited the Beta state. A half a year later 3.05 had some of the same issues, but they cleared if after initial Beta phase, and that’s when the dual M.2 module was then launched. But it wasn’t at that time a newly developed product for the purposes of “they care about Laptop 16” argument IMO.
The single key module on the other hand is a promised product without too clear a release date. Nirav said they’re going to seed it to some people and make it buyable on the marketplace closer to Q3. Which would mean they released two products for Laptop 16 in two years.
They released new bezel colors and motherboards for Laptop 13 during this event alone.
But I think we agree that the platform isn’t dead. That said, just because there was less Laptop 16 news at this event than other platforms is unfortunate, but I definitely think people are blowing it out of proportion.
Not really. They designed a custom PCIE interface as well as a whole new chassis (not a ton of work on the surface but to get it as seamless/polished as it is now takes a ton of work) as well as continuing to support it with more and more upgrades, ie ortholinear kb, dual m.2 card. I think the logic for framework right now is something similar to the SD card slot not being made until framework knew it was ready. There were SD card slot housings that could technically fit into the expansion card form factor, however they would compromise the structural integrity of the card (due to thin walls). Because of this, framework didn’t release the new expansion card slot until they knew it was ready. I suspect they are doing the same with the fw16, waiting until there are processors with socket-able ram rather than just releasing the second generation without it because its time to release another generation according to the customers. The reason it was okay(ish) for the FW desktop is because it isn’t really intended for use as somebody’s main computer but more rather as a home lab/ai workstation imo.
tl;dr framework will release it when its ready, rather than when people want it. that’s why it took 3 generations for them to release an AMD fw13 and why they haven’t priced the FW 12 yet. A lot of these projects just aren’t done yet and we’re lucky they’re announcing them at all rather than just releasing them when they’re ready considering the company’s philosophy.