Are we almost ready for a second gen FL16?

FL16 was first announced around March 2023. We’re now 18 months since then…maybe about time for a second gen FL16 announcement?

What would you like to see in this potentially upcoming iteration?

I’ll start:
Thunderbolt 5

  • LPCAMM
  • 2 m.2 2280 slots
  • 99.9 Wh battery
  • Atoms speakers
  • Microphone array with noise cancellation
  • 240Hz OLED panel option (in addition to current offering)
  • 14Hrs+ in notebookcheck’s battery wifi test
  • Better / More resilient paint / coating

p.s. Please let us know, Framework, so I can start budgeting for it. :slight_smile:

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That is a very big ask for just the 2nd generation when the first one is less than a year old.

Thunderbolt 5 likely won’t come to FL16 until the release of Arrow Lake and that is if FW decides to make an Intel FL16. We don’t know how long this will take, hopefully not as long as it took to get AMD on the FL13.

LPCAMM is still pretty new in the space (there is only one other laptop that I know of with LPCAMM2), so Framework would be taking quite a gamble at choosing to use it for the second gen FL16. They will also be making the DDR5 5600Mhz modules that they made instantly obsolete so I’d assume they’d at least want to keep it for maybe 1 - 2 more generations like with DDR4. The price of LPCAMM2 is also quite a lot more than the price of SODIMM modules with the same capacity ($329 to $173 for 64GB). It’s uncertain if CPU manufacturers will want to keep it for that long though (with all the switching to soldered or on package RAM). If Framework does want to use LPCAMM2, they will likely have to either buy LPCAMM2 modules off the shelf or communicate with Micron or Samsung. It would be a nice addition, but it’s up to Framework how they plan on handling the transition (sudden or gradual).

2 m.2 2280 slots is likely not coming because unless they physically shrink the profile of the mainboard, there is nowhere they can get enough space for another 2280 slot. They also have to make sure that all the screw holes align with the current gen to retain backwards compatibility.

Assuming they had already implemented the energy density optimizations from when they swapped the 55Wh battery to a 60 Wh battery in the FL13, it will likely have to take even more advancements in battery science before a 99.9 Wh battery. The chances of this happening I feel are more likely than the getting 2 2280 m.2 slots.

Atmos speakers is probably the most easy to implement of these features, and Framework has improved the speakers on the FW13 after a few years, so it is quite possible they will update them.

A microphone array would be nice, but the current implementation of microphones has all of them on the microphone + webcam module, so Framework would likely have to do some amount redesign in order to add another microphone somewhere else. They also just released their second generation microphone + webcam module, so if a new FL16 comes, it will likely use that.

If Framework were to add a 240Hz OLED panel, they would likely have to source it from a predesigned panel like what they did with the Core Ultra 1 Series FL13. The costs to create such a panel from scratch would be very high and Framework is likely not willing to invest that much just yet.

Battery life might be able to surpass 14hrs with all of the efficiency improvements from both AMD and Intel, but it is hard to tell. If they are going with high performance / high power chips, then battery life probably won’t change much. The 240hz OLED would also drain a lot more power compared to the current IPS panel.

It would be nice if they could come up with a better more durable coating, but that would require some amount of tooling changes, so Framework may or may not add this. If a lot of users are experiencing these issues, it is likely they will try adding a more durable coating.

While these features are all nice, it is quite a huge ask for the second generation FL16. Framework might implement some of these features, but it is likely that the majority of them will have to at least take some generations before they are implemented.

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Add the 9 months (FL16 intro–> release period) into the future…that’s looking at summer next year.

Wonder where we are with solid state batteries. One can dream.

2 x m.2 2280: Take the Razer Blade 16 (2024) stacked design + heatspreader, link below.

Microphone array: I feel that’s a miss if there’s no noise cancellation by then…in 2025.

Panel: Take the Razer Blade 16 (2024)…and up/tune/tweak/enhance the brightness, then we’ll be golden: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Razer-Blade-16-2024-laptop-review-Now-with-super-fast-Samsung-OLED.804677.0.html

Battery life: Hoping the future battery is 99.9Wh…with a more energy efficient platform, to offset the OLED power consumption. Some don’t mind the trade off…it’s about options.

Huge ask, yes. But the current design, IMO, left a bit of room to play catch up with the field in some areas.

Or is the FL16 going to follow the trend of FL13 for not being competitive (according to a couple of FL13 reviews)…and we need to accept certain compromises? Because I would then ask (based on that list of nahs)…what can we expect? Just newer processor?

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There may be a new display option (hopefully touchscreen or OLED/ Mini-LED), but it likely won’t be able to match a display like the Razer Blade 16. Framework uses BOE as their display partner, so they would have to get Samsung on board to produce the OLED panels which will likely also be pretty high cost even if all the panel design has already been finished. They also need to make sure to retain compatibility with the current display connector which may or may not be possible with a premade panel design.

The Framework also already uses stacked m.2 slots for the m.2 2280 and m.2 2230. The issue with trying to fit in 2 2280 m.2s is that the bottom left Expansion Card slot is in the way and prevents them from getting more space. Unless they redesign the mainboard, it will be difficult to fit in a second 2280. They also have to make sure to maintain backwards compatibility.

Framework is in a quite difficult position as they have to maintain backwards compatibility which is what is nice about the laptops, but also an Achilles’ heel. Everything has to be made sure to fit with the old models and it doesn’t leave a lot of flexibility.

Some possible things that they are likely to update would be the addition of new input modules (like the display demoed in the first prototype LTT video), using the second gen webcam module, maybe new speakers and display, and the next gen CPUs + GPUs.

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No available (or even announced) CPUs have support for Thunderbolt 5. Thunderbolt 5 support can be achieved with external Thunderbolt 5 controller chips, however external controllers tend to be more expensive than CPU integrated controllers while also performing worse and consuming more power.

I doubt a second gen (if one comes in the near future) FWL16 will support Thunderbolt 5. Potentially a third gen may.

The big advantage of LPCAMM is for iGPU performance (due to higher bandwidth), however I imagine that most FWL16 owners in need of GPU performance are likely to opt for the dGPU module so that benefit isn’t as important with the FWL16.

The other advantage of LPCAMM is power efficiency, however based on some numbers from Micron I expect the battery life improvement of LPCAMM2 would be around 15 minutes in a Framework Laptop 16.

LPCAMM has worse latency than SODIMM (hurting CPU performance) and would break backwards compatibility with current SODIMM modules.

Overall I would prefer LPCAMM, however it is a very mild preference and I expect Framework will probably stick with SODIMM.

Assuming that battery capacity improves exponentially it would mean that 90.5 Wh is what should now be possible based on the time between the Framework Laptop 13 being released and its upgraded battery being released.

Maybe in a couple more year 99.9 Wh will be available.

Interestingly Framework’s patent for the Framework Laptop 16 mentions the possibility of putting an additional speaker in the expansion bay (and has this poorly edited image):

Such a setup would allow for an excellent implementation of Dolby Atmos.

Edit: I missed this initially but they also mention the possibility of speaker modules alongside the keyboard, which would also help with a surround sound setup.

That would be nice, although I think 240 Hz Mini-LED would be more likely based on what Framework’s display supplier currently offers.

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I just want to see a Windows hello camera array come out with a new bezel so I can upgrade eventually. Fingerprint is fine but I do miss my windows hello. Along with a solution to the fan noise/whine. Right now I have to power the computer with an undersized power adapter to keep it quiet and not experience the high pitch whine of fan/air noise.

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I’ve been dreaming about that for a long time already. :laughing:

I suspect you’d be surprised at how many of us do NOT have, or want, a dGPU. I’m quite happy with the integrated GPU, I chose the FW16 over the FW13 primarily for the screen size and extra I/O ports. Added iGPU performance would be a welcome improvement.

No reason to limit it to 99.9Wh. That’s an airline limit, and specifically for Lithium-Ion batteries, it presumably wouldn’t be applied to solid-state or aqueous batteries.

I would rather see battery with metal casing to prevent swelling

High quality, haptic touchpad. I’d like to see that on the FW13 as well.

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Good point.
Hoping to see solid state battery to appear in laptops in the next 24 months.

Having metal casing does not prevent swelling…it’s still expanding on the inside. In fact, you’d make the explosion more violent once the casing structure fails…and you won’t see that until it’s too late. Current design is that you can see it slowly expanding…and do something about it, not hidden from sight.

EDIT: Also, because of the supposedly strong metal casing, that means the now much high internal pressure would also increase the temperature inside as well…not what you want really.

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One can always hope, but I won’t expect them until I start seeing them. Even once they get off the ground, all of the manufacturing capacity is sure to go toward electric vehicles at first, as that’s where the greatest profit is likely to be. :slightly_frowning_face: They’ll get to us eventually though.

Well, i have dozens of 18650 batteries in my inventory and non of them swells or explods. I even tried overcharging two of these to 12V to test how dangerous it was when misused and I just heard a pop(not loud) and I got a 0V and infinityΩ. It was the safety valve physically disconnected the electrode within the cell, still, no structural failure and no explosion.

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may be this CPU: AMD pushes Ryzen to the Max — Ryzen AI Max 300 Strix Halo reportedly has up to 16 Zen 5 cores and 40 RDNA 3+ CUs | Tom's Hardware
with 2 LPCAMM2 :wink:

You described one form of fail-safe. But not all situations has a fail-safe state.

When they go, they go.

And this guy got roasted inside an elevator by his ebike battery:

When you can see the battery expanded / swelled up…it’s better than not able to see it.

In short, I’ll take any warning sign I can get, thank you.

Hell, this even turned into a propulsion system:

I had one of these e-bikes unfortunately the cells are pouch and they expanded after a year of use. The original range was 40~45km per charge but now it could only do 2.5km but strangely if you let it rest for 5 min it could do another 2.5km and so on. I also have an electric kick scooter with 18650 batteries, the original range was 24km, after 5 years it can still do 21km

SSBs have been “around the corner” for like…24 years?

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Yeah…that…we’re ‘getting’ there. Here’s the saga so far:

and this:

In short, maybe we’re at a ‘gel’ / semi-solid state…with some of the SSB benefits.

The touchscreen is my most often-missed feature. My previous Dell Windows laptop had it so I find myself smudging my FW16 ubuntu screen a lot without reward. Zooming with a +/- icon and traveling with clicks and drags works, but it is hoitilly toitilly frustrating. There are starving and trafficked children in the world… so that’s a more pressing concern, but if a new feature is being (re)considered, touchscreen would be my druther.

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Already an owner of the first gen, I personally can wait on an improved chassis. I’d bet that would be an expensive endeavor to upgrade so rather wait until there’s a reason to replace (ex: accidental fall).

I’d be excited to have a haptic touch pad. And if they can make speakers that go in place of the keyboard inserts, that’d be great.

If I were buying new, improved chassis would be very nice (especially regarding the paint durability), a next-tier dGPU, a 240W PSU, Ryzen AI Max 300 (and the Intel equivalent), better display option (240 Hz LCD and/or OLED), touchscreen for those who want one (not me, lol).

I’m still waiting on my RMA FW16 to come back so I haven’t really got a chance to use my precious. It got dBranded but not yet sticker-bombed even!

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No love for two-finger scrolling and pinch-to-zoom?

:slight_smile: I can learn anything.

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