Details on exact level of support of USB4 ports on 13th gen?

Framework Laptop 13
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Has anyone found any info I missed, tested it themselves or a gotten a close-enough glimpse of the board to confirm how much of Intel’s 13th gen features FW supports? Or can we get more explicit specs on what every port can do?

Because according to Intel’s specs (p14, pp136) the 13th CPUs should support USB3 20G and also DP at the new UHBR10 and UHBR20 speeds on the USB4 ports, which would all be new features compared to the 12th gen.

But these features or at least the USB3 20G requires newer Re-Timer chips (“Hayden Bridge” instead of the “Burnside Bridge” ones used on the 11th and 12th gen FWs) and therefore also for the board / device to support it. The schematic for the 13th gen is not up yet and so far I found no reviewer discussing the topic of enhanced USB4 ports for any 13th gen mobile device.

FWs specs for their USB4 ports are not detailed enough to confirm either way. “TB4” includes a lot of features that were previously not explicitly stated by FW when they were only called USB4 ports (like the 2nd tunneled DP connection that is still not mentioned in the specs for the AMD version and would bring the specs of it up to par with the features that are guaranteed by the TB4 label. Something that also no reviewer seems interested in confirming).

Now, I am unsure if either the faster USB3 speed or the new DP speeds could even be tunneled through USB4 / TB4, as the existing TB4 hubs surely have no support for outputting it. Intel’s specs are not clear enough if those features would ever supported for tunneling through USB4 on the current hardware, so it might just be that they are only supported directly on the outputs.

But I would be curious to get more info or insights, as also no other device seems to be advertised with it.
Like, did Intel announce it, but in the end it silently never materialized, similar to AMD announcing support for higher DP speeds from 6000 Ryzen iGPUs onwards that also seems to not be available on any actual device?
Was it too expensive, are some required chips not yet available or does it require future firmware updates like AMD enabling its first USB4 implementation only some time after shipping?

This topic could also be extended to the AMD board, as AMD also at least specs its 7040U chips to support DP at UHBR10 speeds. The other two things are not supported according to AMDs own specs, so at least there we have clarity.

PS. if anybody has any AMD 6000 or 7000 mobile devices with USB4 and motivation to check a few things, I have more questions concerning the topology of the USB4 ports. Would be interested in trying to find out, if any one solution is superior or lacking in any specific aspect (on paper and in the real world).

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I would send a message to framework support, as they can likely get you this information best.

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This is very late and perhaps you moved the conversation elsewhere but:
Zike Drive w\WD Black SN850x using CrystalDiskMark test on Framework 13 13th gen intel using 10gb, 20gb, 40gb cable:
10gb: R=1083MBps W=1061MBps
20gb: R=1906MBps W=1452MBps
40gb: R=3816MBps W=3192MBps
Also tested with an Airusan SSD enclosure that uses the same ASM2464PD chip the Zike Drive uses. Test results were essentially identical.
Tested with many cables, differences were negligible.
The results vary wildly depending on the SSD used but that’s an issue with the ASM2464 not the Framework. I’ve only achieved these results with SN850x. Other high end 4x4 SSDs like the Samsung 990 Pro had miserable write speeds in the Zike Drive either in the Framework or other USB4\Thunderbolt ports.
Also, Thunderbolt 4 ports on various desktop motherboards have only gotten to about 3100 R/W with the same tests as above.
Also: tested in different ports on Framework, as expected same results.

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Sadly, I know of no way to force the ASM2464 into a USB3 20G mode, because basically every cable that allows that, will also allow USB4 20G, which was already supported by the 11th and 12th gen CPUs.

You’d probably need a device that supports USB3 20G but NOT USB4 in order to try if USB3 20G is supported.
But since no other manufacturer has advertised USB3 20G support with 13th gen mobile CPUs that FW would not have that feature either.

Checking which ReTimer chip is used on the board is probably the quickest way with a FW to ascertain if it could possibly support the new features that Intel claimed, but no one seems to have (or advertise).

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Not sure what this is referring to but you can put the Zike Drive, with the ASM2464PD, into a USB3 2x2 port and get R/W 2040/2020 whether it’s a 20g or 40g rated cable it’s exactly the same. Better than the ASM2464 on USB4 even though it’s what should be expected for both.
The main ASM2464 issue I have seen is with 4x4 SSDs that aren’t the SN850x on the ASM2464. For example the Samsung 990 Pro gets R 3800 but W 500. Whereas all PCIE3 SSDs get appropriate speeds, for example SK Hynix Gold P31 = 3358/2676.
There may be another 4x4 SSD that can work properly but I have not tried it yet.
There are some settings you can play with in the “ASM2464PD USB4 Device Controller MP Tool” to effect system interface but I have not methodically documented that. BTW - the tool doesn’t run on my Framework, it immediately bluescreens and restarts system. I have to run on a different system. The bluescreen occurs even if there is no attached device.
I think I’m going to need to get a non AS Media based enclosure for testing.
Edit: So far the only thing the ASM tool does not run on is the Framework. Maybe should be a concern.

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I know that the ASM2464 does support USB3 20G connections as well. I have used that also with mine.
But since this thread is about whether the 13th gen USB4 ports also support USB3 20G (which is not mandated by TB4 or anybody else and has so far not been seen in the wild on a USB4 host port), the ASM2464 left alone will always make a USB4 20G connection instead of the USB3 20G connection that I wondered about in my initial post. We already know that all of FWs USB4 ports do support UB4 20G speeds, as that is mandatory.
I have not managed to force my ASM2464 into another mode with the tool (although it runs on all my hosts, including my 12th gen FW), so unless you can force it with software to not make USB4 connections at all, it will not prove anything we do not know about the 13th gen FW or Intel CPUs.

Towards the speeds with USB4 20G vs USB3 20G: I have not looked into the overheads of USB3 and UASP. But PCIe tunneling via USB4 has huge overheads: larger than native PCIe, since TB/USB4 still limits to 128 Byte per packet vs. the 256 Byte that most NVMes want. And USB4+PCIe incurr about 32 Bytes overhead per packet on top of the 128 Byte.
So since there are more layers to USB4 + PCIe + NVMe it makes sense it has less usable bandwidth. But on the other hand, much better latency than translating everything into a dummbed down USB protocol that was not designed for high performance SSDs and will achieve far lower IOPS.

Btw. have you seen any compatibility issues with the ASM2464? My Satechi on release firmware (1005) made only USB2 connections to my TB3 host. With new firmwares (1218) it makes mostly x2 connections (gen 3, I only have a Samsung 970 Evo in it currently).
And then it stopped making USB4 connections to my TB4 desktop (Maple Ridge, TB drivers). The only host it works reliably on is my FW (USB4 drivers of course).
And even here, chained behind a TB4 hub, it limits itself to x2 Gen 3 connections.