Framework worked hard to lose me: a terrible experience with customer support

[Damariscove]

TL;DR:

• Framework support exploited my limited time and misdirected enthusiasm

• Framework appears to knowingly violate implied warranty law.

• Framework lost my trust and support at this time, but has a path to make things right.

• This is unrelated to the Framework 16 roll out.

What happened:

Screenshots are also attached on the Reddit post with the same title.

Recently the F4 keycap on my Framework 13 split in two with no discernible cause. On a laptop that is less that two years old, this seemed to be an defect with quality control or design. I submitted a photo to support requesting a replacement, fully confident that Framework would respond with integrity.

Framework support responded several times asking for photos. Each email requested photos that were increasingly irrelevant to my ticket. I happily responded to all emails with the requested photos and answers to whatever questions they had. After nearly two weeks and several emails, I asked for an explanation as the requests seemed completely irrelevant to my ticket. Support acknowledged that “the F4 key caps split issue has nothing to do with the connectors on the input cover” and that I would need to purchase a replacement keyboard or input cover since the laptop is out of warranty.

It’s clear that Framework had no intention of providing support, but nonetheless withheld this information for nearly two weeks while they repeatedly benefited from my time and information. I would have been more than happy to help if stood by their product, and may have considered helping if they were transparent about their intentions. Framework instead appeared to opportunistically exploit one of their most vocally-enthusiastic customers.

Also,

as Framework collected my state’s sales tax at the time of sale, they were/are aware that they must comply with my state’s four-year post-purchase “implied warranty” law for items that are not abused by the consumer and have a reasonable expectation to be within their useful life. This law supersedes manufacturer warranties. There is no reasonable expectation that a laptop keyboard should fail in less than two years of use (or four, for that matter). Subjectivity aside, the two year threshold is especially reasonable as Framework offers a two year warranty in the EU. My case is therefore clearly in scope for my state’s law.

I responded to their rejection, asking them if they will comply with my state’s implied warranty law.

This is where Framework could make things right. Unfortunately, they did the opposite. Framework responded asserting “Customer-Induced Damage,” without evidence, in contradiction with yesterday’s communication in which they stated that my device is simply outside warranty, and only after I invoked the implied warranty law. I responded to clarify that the broken keycap would not have been supported under warranty, which was promptly confirmed with encouragement to purchase a new input cover.

When considering

1. Framework had every opportunity to previously identify “Customer-Induced Damage,” which

2. Framework declared “customer-induced damage”, without evidence, after Maine’s implied warranty law was invoked and that

3. Framework asserted that this is “Customer-Induced Damage” furthermore contradicting yesterday’s response, in which the exact language was: “Upon checking on your account, the laptop is already beyond our 1-year warranty period. Unfortunately, we can’t process process replacement on our end.”

4. a precedent with other customers where keycaps fall off and receive support

I’m genuinely speechless.

The “Framework” for my response:

In the US, the rights of businesses generally supersede the rights of consumers. This creates subset of consumers who realize and loathe their systemic exploitation. Subconsciously or deliberately, these consumer’s only tool for reciprocity is to make it clear to the business that they will not be taken advantage of.

Framework’s pitch to investors and customers alike is predicated upon winning this segment of the market through a return to decency in business through consistent demonstrations of good-faith, transparency, and response to feedback. As a result, Framework benefits enormously from free product development, UX research, marketing etc. from enthusiastic crowds of supporters who are ecstatic about the company’s potential to get consumables right and defy the perverse incentives within America’s economic landscape to over-invest in returns on a 3-12 month horizon.

Admittedly a given company’s transparency and integrity is difficult to fully verify. This is especially true with Framework, who maintains full control over their forums on most platforms and has a very-real need to protect certain information. Plenty of folks on Framework’s platforms, including Reddit, have expressed cynicism about whether Framework’s pro-consumer model is merely marketing, rather than an actual business case. After all, we all know how Silicon Valley VC’s behave and Framework is beholden to these VC’s.

My response:

With great sadness, my recent experience with Framework support compels me to no longer advocate for Framework’s product and, more importantly, as a company. Moving forward, I must treat Framework as any other VC-backed, PE-controlled, or publicly-traded business by anticipating and reciprocating the greed, manipulation, and cynicism that they deploy against their consumers. This decision is painful, as I provided years of free marketing through enthusiastic support on reddit (as can be verified by my post history) and referred numerous sales. Who knows how many additional sales resulted from my posts and comments on these forums.

As Framework received my initial request 11 days ago, my understanding is that they have 19 remaining days to comply with the implied warranty law in my state. If a replacement keyboard or input cover does not arrive before February 12, I will submit a formal complaint with my state’s Attorney General office, who are well known for enthusiasm toward this particular law. It’s safe to assume that this is not an isolated incident, so I will informed my State’s AG office of Framework’s attempt to not comply with the law regardless.

Framework’s Opportunity

Please note that I have self-reflected on the text that follows and believe that feedback about this section is accurate. It was a bit much. I’ll leave it in an effort to practice what I preach.

If Framework does the following:

• Complies with my implied warranty part replacement request

• Provide evidence of policy and procedural change to comply with all implied warranty laws proactively, without prompting from the consumer

• Provide evidence of policy and procedural change to ensure that support only solicits resources from consumers (time, knowledge, publicity, etc.) with full transparency and consent about what Framework will or will not do to help.

I will do the following:

• Update, rather than delete, this negative review on this and all other public forums to ensure visibility for Framework’s correction. This strikes me as excellent marketing. Conversely, this also ensures accountability if Framework reverses course.

• Inform my state AG office that I am satisfied with Frameworks response

• Maintain the wholehearted belief that Framework did right by their supporters

• Consider Framework for future purchases, including recommendations to others

C’mon Nirav. We all think you’re better than this.

[lbkNhubert]

While it’s unfortunate that the key cap broke, good luck getting any company to issue a replacement for something like that. A key on my work-issued laptop (high end) began to split. A little superglue and it has been fine ever since. You could try to superglue that key back together and pop it back on, or replace the keyboard or input cover. Apparently the keyboard replacement is a pain, so when I wanted to switch keyboards I just got a replacement input cover. Is Framework perfect? No. But in my opinion you are making unfounded assertions of intentional bad faith actions by Support. You are expending a lot of effort when you have other options available to you, even if you think that you are in the right.

Finally, your if-then comments at the end are a bit much.

Have a good evening.

[Damariscove]

The company agreed to ahere to my state’s laws when they sold the laptop in my state. I wasn’t even upset about the key, but I am very upset about how freely they wasted my time and exploited my patience, then moving the goalpost about “customer-induced damage” from the one year warranty when they learned that they are bound to my state’s laws.

I’ll accept the criticism about the if-then comments. I do feel that Framework betrayed their own values in how they handled the ticket.

[lbkNhubert]

I hope that you find peace. Be well.

[BigT]

Sorry to hear about all your trouble, though I think saying they “exploited” you might be a bit hyperbolic.

Still, I’m sorry you weren’t able to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Personally, I feel like I’d probably just be glad my computer was repairable, repair it and move on. Life’s too short to stress yourself too much over such things. Again, that’s just me.

Good luck, whatever you do. Cheers.

[SoldierSvejk]

The story might have garnered some sympathy had it not been for the theatrics.

What exactly is the supposed issue here? Sounds like they had you take pictures of the device beyond the keycap in question and determined that the failure was not a result of QA or manufacturing issues.

If you felt that support had made a mistake in their decision, this was not the correct (or productive) way of expressing that disagreement.

Edit: you CC’d your state’s AG based on a dispute with customer service over a $50 part?

[Damariscove]

There’s plenty of valid criticism’s of my post, ranging from “too emotional” to “theatrical”. That’s fine. I welcome the criticism and will continue to self-reflect.

Shortcomings in my presentation aside, the following facts strike me as profoundly troublesome

1. Framework appears to have a precedent with other customers where keycaps fall off and are supported under warranty.
2. Framework support initially denied my request using the one year warranty as justification
3. When made aware of my state’s implied warranty law, Framework immediately pivoted to a previously-unstated claim of Consumer-Induced Damage while providing no evidence.
4. Framework support did string me along without revealing their intention to not assist.
5. Comments on the parallel reddit post supporting me were deleted for supposedly violating community guideslines, whereas combative, abuse, and discrepectful comments toward me were unmoderated until I called out the mods. EDIT: The mods reached out and worked with me. I’m satisfied with their response.

To be clear, I’m not even slightly upset about the keycap. I’m unsettled by the deception, defensiveness, and deflections by Framework in these communications, which completely contradict the image that Framework cultivates. I am more than open to being wrong, and would happily accept consistency, coherence, and evidence that Framework could provide to put the matter to rest.

[GhostLegion]

I think I’m going to have to agree with OP here. I don’t think the OP is being “theatrical” or otherwise excessively emotional. Just because a device can be repaired by the user doesn’t mean it should if it’s within warranty period. Given that it seems covered by Maine’s law, it is now under warranty and should be honored as such. Normal wear/tear doesn’t seem to matter. To my untrained eye, the only thing that would exempt Framework is if the OP abused the device. One worn/split key doesn’t seem to be evidence of abuse. Nor did the device seem particularly damaged from the photos otherwise.

Sorry you experienced this OP. You have my sympathies.

Quick edit: I don’t think Framework’s intent was to “lead you on” or anything when they were asking for additional pics nor did their response seem to imply that to me. I think they genuinely were checking the rest of the machine to make sure the rest was in good working order. Just my impression tho.

Edit 2: the forum posts you linked to seem to have been from customers in the standard 1-year warranty window and so not necessarily applicable to you. If you/AG can prove it’s within warranty then fine but until then, those posts don’t matter much imo

Edit 3: I’m not entirely certain that a broken keycap qualifies as “seriously defective” but honestly, it’s more the principle of the thing than anything else at this point. I’m confident you could afford the repair out of pocket but that’s really missing the point. You want Framework to stand behind their product and they’ve currently failed to do so up to this point.

TL:DR I’m not confident that Framework has a legal obligation here but ultimately I feel that’s irrelevant, it should break within a couple of years and so should be fixed at company expense. Frameworks save $40 not fixing it and loses thousands in potential sales. Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

(BTW OP, Maine apparently has a draft form as part of the document explaining the law in the link below, I’d advise you use it if you haven’t already).

https://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/attach.php?id=27922&an=1

[GhostLegion]

Review of hardware durability and repair (1.5 years)

Bought the 11th Gen DIY edition back in August 2021 and it has run without any issues. Have been using it for 8-12 hours of use everyday and travelling extensively. Case Have dropped the laptop probably more than 5 times, but less than 10. Small damage to the case and on the most recent drop it also cracked the touchpad. [image] Touchpad [image] Ordered replacement on Thu Feb. 22, it shipped out on Fri Feb. 23 and arrived on Monday Feb 26 (USA). Did not affect usability luckily, so I rep…

This guy has similar damage to you I think and the top guy for Framework support seems to think it was very well-used. I’m curious how you’ve used your device OP? What’s your average use look like? Do you use that particular key frequently?

[lbkNhubert]

I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Check out the Reddit post, for one. “Framework worked hard to lose me: a terrible experience with dishonest support”. Dishonest support? Apologies, but bullsh*t (comment not directed at you, but at calling Support dishonest). That’s over the top and theatrical, to put it nicely. “Exploited my limited time”, “appears to knowingly (sic) violate implied warranty law”, “it’s clear that Framework had no intention of providing support”, and so on.

It’s unfortunate that the keycap broke. Proving that it was a defect may be impossible to do. A better approach would have been to continue to escalate, politely, and if the OP desired, start a case through his state.

We’re supposed to presume that the OP is operating in nothing but good faith while Framework is operating in nothing but bad faith. I don’t buy it. Framework is not perfect, nor are its employees, the OP, me, or anyone else. This whole thread is a mess. The one on reddit is worse, and the OP is claiming victimhood there and here. This is exactly the type of client that businesses ask to take their business elsewhere. Not that I expect that Framework will, they are a lot kinder than many,

I guess I just don’t agree with how the whole thing has been presented.

[Damariscove]

I daily drive the machine, as I would assume is the intended use for the thing.

I certainly did not daily drive, let alone abuse, the F4 key. Of all of the possible points of failure, that one is beyond me.

[GhostLegion]

@lbkNhubert thats fair, I was more referring to the AG portion of the post and criticism thereof of that. Although tbh, commenting on tone of the post in either direction would be a violation of community guidelines here. At least it was the last time I read them.

Also didn’t really read the Reddit post because Reddit is a cesspool

[Damariscove]

I have every right to publicly share an experience that contradict’s Framework’s marketing.

If you identify inaccuracies or misrepresentation in my posts, I will gladly correct them and take ownership.

[lbkNhubert]

That’s reasonable as well. Thanks for the response, and have a good one.

[lbkNhubert]

I don’t recall that I commented about your right or lack thereof to share your experience. I did, however, take issue with assertions that do not appear to be backed up and to certain other elements in the post.

I hope that you achieve resolution to your issue, whatever path it takes.

You may or may not believe it, but to reiterate what I said in a prior post, I wish you peace, and to be well.

[GhostLegion]

Seriously, let’s end any discussion about tone or hyperbole. It really is in violation of community guidelines and is quite unproductive. OP, you aren’t likely to get any kind of desirable resolution to your request here. My linked post makes that quite clear. Damage more extensive(more keycaps) was already deemed excessive and Framework support gave you an official answer in email. If you want to continue to press your case, by all means do so. I’d use the template your state so kindly provides to you and send it to Framework support and then contact your state AG if you feel obligated to do so. Other than that, you made your feelings and experience known, so you’ve accomplished that purpose.

Let’s just call it a night now. It’s just after midnight where I am and I have class in the morning so I bid you all a good night and pleasant/restful sleep.

[MJ1]

While I think that perhaps support should have processed the issue differently, I don’t think the conversation shows the agent was acting with ill-intent. Like trying to waste your time, or truly deciding that it was Customer-Induced Damage only due to your state’s longer implied warranty. Rather, I think it may just be due to the procedure they follow and having to handle a large number of tickets quickly.

Customer reports damage, first step may be to ask for pictures of the whole laptop, bottom side of the part in question and the connector, just as standard procedure. Actually making any assessment only comes after they have that.

And the responses from support, you have to remember that certain parts come from standard responses they have.

You can see that here where they say “We’ve come to the conclusion that there is a need to replace the Keyboard”. That is obvious sooner, from the first picture of the keycap, but procedure likely dictated that it only be said at the end, even if it sounds odd.

@Damariscove

Now at this point I think they just got to a stage where they can say that there are no other issues preventing a simple input cover replacement from working. Such as a damaged connector or body damage preventing it from fitting properly. This needs to be done regardless of warranty status because they would still need to be able to advise you on the repair. So everything up to this is not done with the intent to waste your time.

Next step, warranty. Oh, warranty is up. No need to continue to the actual assessment of whether the issue would be covered, which might require moving the ticket over to a different person who is experienced in that aspect.

So the agent tells you the two repair options, keyboard only, or whole input cover. Refers you to repair guides, and tells you that unfortunately your warranty is up. Even if that agent was experienced in assessing Customer-Induced Damage, is there a need or advantage in bringing that up? It serves no purpose, while possibly making the customer upset.

When you brought up that your state has a longer implied warranty, now the agent is at the stage of forwarding it for assessment.

Personally, if it was me, and I knew how I treated my laptop, I would certainly say they got it wrong. A key shouldn’t break with normal use. But on the other hand, I can kind of see how they might believe it to be Customer-Induced. If they’ve had no other issues with keys splitting, then they may feel they know that the keys won’t do that unless subjected to something abnormal.

You say that they assert that it’s Customer-Induced without evidence. But there never is actual hard evidence. No company will be expected to have video proof showing the use that a product has seen. If laws required hard evidence, then there would be massive abuse and honest customers would suffer with hugely increased prices to cover the costs. So assessment based on knowledge of the parts and the history of issues that have been seen is all that can be done. I do think too many companies abuse this, and deny claims they know to be legitimate. But Framework doesn’t strike me as being like that.

[2disbetter]

There are SOOOO many cases of Framework support going above and beyond despite this usually entailing a financial loss on their end. To sit here and say that they are intentionally wasting your time smacks of you not understanding that the world is much larger than you.

Your standard warranty has run out, but your state has an additional period of time for warranties in law. Now unless the law surrounding CID claims are spelled out, Framework has done nothing wrong, and in fact is in the right here.

Here is why I think this:
Testing and engineering of commercial products are intense and thorough. This testing is not perfect. However, in all of the laptops Framework has sold the number of cases were the key has split in the way yours has are rare or non-existent. (once again, this is my guess)
On the other hand, the world we live in is defined by the laws of physics and more that we have not or cannot currently define. These laws say that actions cannot happen without other actions. Meaning that miraculous key splitting is not a thing. There had to be an appropriate action repetitive or sudden that occurred and resulted in the keycap splitting.
It is not rocket science to say that under normal use such a thing is not possible, especially when a split key is not happening elsewhere on your keyboard or other users. I have had my FW 13 for years now. I’ve typed a lot on it. I don’t even know how the key could split to begin with.

Combine this with your attempts at smearing them here and on other social platforms and your story seems fishy to me.

Furthermore, as a smaller company they need to make sure that their kindness is not being taken advantage of. Returns and warranty cases can sink companies.

NOW, if your key really did just split and you have been using it normally (IE: you are not a keyboard masher or something), this is disappointing for you. I can totally agree with that. But I would just ask you to try to see it from Framework’s position. AND, your keyboard is fixable in not one but two ways.

Is it really justified to try to tear down the only company making such a repair possible?

NOTE: I do not work for Framework, and am not an official employee in any way.

[TJ1]

Note - I’m the guy from Review of hardware durability and repair (1.5 years)

My personal experience is that Framework support leaves me with a mild sense of meh. I travel a lot, so it doesn’t make sense sometimes to contact them as I wouldn’t be able to get the part most of the time.

My experience:

1. I replaced the keyboard. You can compare the initial and final pictures as the paint job got worse, but the real reason for replacement is that 2 years in, the alt key quit working.
   1Y keyboard paint job
   2Y keyboard paint job
   For my keyboard wear and tear, I’m really not sure that was due to usage, I would suspect it’s a bad paint job. I finally had to replace it because the alt key went bad (2 years in - definitely out of warranty). 5 months after replacement, this keyboard is not having any paint stripping / bubbles, so my assessment is likely correct.

2. The initial and replacement power cables both ended up being frayed. I only contacted support out of warranty for the first one. Should it have been replaced if it’s a known issue even out of warranty? Not really sure, but it is sure irritating to order a second one and also have it be frayed in a few months(not sure the exact timeline, but disappointing). I got a braided usb cable from Walmart instead. Note - I did not contact support for the 2nd one as I’m travelling, but perhaps I should.

3. I wanted to order a matte screen and it was not shippable. They contacted me and said they would ship it even though they screwed up. Which is totally awesome. Unfortunately, due to travel I still couldn’t get that ordered.

Regarding OP, given the likelihood that I’m in the 99th percentile of laptop abusers, I can say there’s really no way that a key should split like that, so I’m having difficulty understanding how this could possibly be customer induced. It’s also highly unlikely that OP would be purposely breaking a key to file an issue. Customer induced damage definitely seems like an unfortunate way to end this issue, but humans are involved and maybe they were having a bad day when they made the assessment.

It happens.

Anyway, the company is growing and evolving, and the reputation will be solidified in the next few years and hopefully, support can evolve to consistently be awesome.

[3by2]

@Damariscove

I have every right to publicly share an experience that contradict’s Framework’s marketing.

So many people in this forum and on Reddit seem to have real trouble with this. I support you OP. I spent a month doing backflips for support with absolute non-sequitur tasks.

I hope you get it sorted, or find a laptop from a company with more integrity.