I hope that you find peace. Be well.
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Sorry to hear about all your trouble, though I think saying they “exploited” you might be a bit hyperbolic.
Still, I’m sorry you weren’t able to come to a satisfactory conclusion.
Personally, I feel like I’d probably just be glad my computer was repairable, repair it and move on. Life’s too short to stress yourself too much over such things. Again, that’s just me.
Good luck, whatever you do. Cheers.
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The story might have garnered some sympathy had it not been for the theatrics.
What exactly is the supposed issue here? Sounds like they had you take pictures of the device beyond the keycap in question and determined that the failure was not a result of QA or manufacturing issues.
If you felt that support had made a mistake in their decision, this was not the correct (or productive) way of expressing that disagreement.
Edit: you CC’d your state’s AG based on a dispute with customer service over a $50 part?
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There’s plenty of valid criticism’s of my post, ranging from “too emotional” to “theatrical”. That’s fine. I welcome the criticism and will continue to self-reflect.
Shortcomings in my presentation aside, the following facts strike me as profoundly troublesome
- Framework appears to have a precedent with other customers where keycaps fall off and are supported under warranty.
- Framework support initially denied my request using the one year warranty as justification
- When made aware of my state’s implied warranty law, Framework immediately pivoted to a previously-unstated claim of Consumer-Induced Damage while providing no evidence.
- Framework support did string me along without revealing their intention to not assist.
- Comments on the parallel reddit post supporting me were deleted for supposedly violating community guideslines, whereas combative, abuse, and discrepectful comments toward me were unmoderated until I called out the mods. EDIT: The mods reached out and worked with me. I’m satisfied with their response.
To be clear, I’m not even slightly upset about the keycap. I’m unsettled by the deception, defensiveness, and deflections by Framework in these communications, which completely contradict the image that Framework cultivates. I am more than open to being wrong, and would happily accept consistency, coherence, and evidence that Framework could provide to put the matter to rest.
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I think I’m going to have to agree with OP here. I don’t think the OP is being “theatrical” or otherwise excessively emotional. Just because a device can be repaired by the user doesn’t mean it should if it’s within warranty period. Given that it seems covered by Maine’s law, it is now under warranty and should be honored as such. Normal wear/tear doesn’t seem to matter. To my untrained eye, the only thing that would exempt Framework is if the OP abused the device. One worn/split key doesn’t seem to be evidence of abuse. Nor did the device seem particularly damaged from the photos otherwise.
Sorry you experienced this OP. You have my sympathies.
Quick edit: I don’t think Framework’s intent was to “lead you on” or anything when they were asking for additional pics nor did their response seem to imply that to me. I think they genuinely were checking the rest of the machine to make sure the rest was in good working order. Just my impression tho.
Edit 2: the forum posts you linked to seem to have been from customers in the standard 1-year warranty window and so not necessarily applicable to you. If you/AG can prove it’s within warranty then fine but until then, those posts don’t matter much imo
Edit 3: I’m not entirely certain that a broken keycap qualifies as “seriously defective” but honestly, it’s more the principle of the thing than anything else at this point. I’m confident you could afford the repair out of pocket but that’s really missing the point. You want Framework to stand behind their product and they’ve currently failed to do so up to this point.
TL:DR I’m not confident that Framework has a legal obligation here but ultimately I feel that’s irrelevant, it should break within a couple of years and so should be fixed at company expense. Frameworks save $40 not fixing it and loses thousands in potential sales. Penny-wise and pound-foolish.
(BTW OP, Maine apparently has a draft form as part of the document explaining the law in the link below, I’d advise you use it if you haven’t already).
https://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/attach.php?id=27922&an=1
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This guy has similar damage to you I think and the top guy for Framework support seems to think it was very well-used. I’m curious how you’ve used your device OP? What’s your average use look like? Do you use that particular key frequently?
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Check out the Reddit post, for one. “Framework worked hard to lose me: a terrible experience with dishonest support”. Dishonest support? Apologies, but bullsh*t (comment not directed at you, but at calling Support dishonest). That’s over the top and theatrical, to put it nicely. “Exploited my limited time”, “appears to knowingly (sic) violate implied warranty law”, “it’s clear that Framework had no intention of providing support”, and so on.
It’s unfortunate that the keycap broke. Proving that it was a defect may be impossible to do. A better approach would have been to continue to escalate, politely, and if the OP desired, start a case through his state.
We’re supposed to presume that the OP is operating in nothing but good faith while Framework is operating in nothing but bad faith. I don’t buy it. Framework is not perfect, nor are its employees, the OP, me, or anyone else. This whole thread is a mess. The one on reddit is worse, and the OP is claiming victimhood there and here. This is exactly the type of client that businesses ask to take their business elsewhere. Not that I expect that Framework will, they are a lot kinder than many,
I guess I just don’t agree with how the whole thing has been presented.
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I daily drive the machine, as I would assume is the intended use for the thing.
I certainly did not daily drive, let alone abuse, the F4 key. Of all of the possible points of failure, that one is beyond me.
@lbkNhubert thats fair, I was more referring to the AG portion of the post and criticism thereof of that. Although tbh, commenting on tone of the post in either direction would be a violation of community guidelines here. At least it was the last time I read them.
Also didn’t really read the Reddit post because Reddit is a cesspool
I have every right to publicly share an experience that contradict’s Framework’s marketing.
If you identify inaccuracies or misrepresentation in my posts, I will gladly correct them and take ownership.
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That’s reasonable as well. Thanks for the response, and have a good one.
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I don’t recall that I commented about your right or lack thereof to share your experience. I did, however, take issue with assertions that do not appear to be backed up and to certain other elements in the post.
I hope that you achieve resolution to your issue, whatever path it takes.
You may or may not believe it, but to reiterate what I said in a prior post, I wish you peace, and to be well.
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Seriously, let’s end any discussion about tone or hyperbole. It really is in violation of community guidelines and is quite unproductive. OP, you aren’t likely to get any kind of desirable resolution to your request here. My linked post makes that quite clear. Damage more extensive(more keycaps) was already deemed excessive and Framework support gave you an official answer in email. If you want to continue to press your case, by all means do so. I’d use the template your state so kindly provides to you and send it to Framework support and then contact your state AG if you feel obligated to do so. Other than that, you made your feelings and experience known, so you’ve accomplished that purpose.
Let’s just call it a night now. It’s just after midnight where I am and I have class in the morning so I bid you all a good night and pleasant/restful sleep.
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While I think that perhaps support should have processed the issue differently, I don’t think the conversation shows the agent was acting with ill-intent. Like trying to waste your time, or truly deciding that it was Customer-Induced Damage only due to your state’s longer implied warranty. Rather, I think it may just be due to the procedure they follow and having to handle a large number of tickets quickly.
Customer reports damage, first step may be to ask for pictures of the whole laptop, bottom side of the part in question and the connector, just as standard procedure. Actually making any assessment only comes after they have that.
And the responses from support, you have to remember that certain parts come from standard responses they have.
You can see that here where they say “We’ve come to the conclusion that there is a need to replace the Keyboard”. That is obvious sooner, from the first picture of the keycap, but procedure likely dictated that it only be said at the end, even if it sounds odd.
Now at this point I think they just got to a stage where they can say that there are no other issues preventing a simple input cover replacement from working. Such as a damaged connector or body damage preventing it from fitting properly. This needs to be done regardless of warranty status because they would still need to be able to advise you on the repair. So everything up to this is not done with the intent to waste your time.
Next step, warranty. Oh, warranty is up. No need to continue to the actual assessment of whether the issue would be covered, which might require moving the ticket over to a different person who is experienced in that aspect.
So the agent tells you the two repair options, keyboard only, or whole input cover. Refers you to repair guides, and tells you that unfortunately your warranty is up. Even if that agent was experienced in assessing Customer-Induced Damage, is there a need or advantage in bringing that up? It serves no purpose, while possibly making the customer upset.
When you brought up that your state has a longer implied warranty, now the agent is at the stage of forwarding it for assessment.
Personally, if it was me, and I knew how I treated my laptop, I would certainly say they got it wrong. A key shouldn’t break with normal use. But on the other hand, I can kind of see how they might believe it to be Customer-Induced. If they’ve had no other issues with keys splitting, then they may feel they know that the keys won’t do that unless subjected to something abnormal.
You say that they assert that it’s Customer-Induced without evidence. But there never is actual hard evidence. No company will be expected to have video proof showing the use that a product has seen. If laws required hard evidence, then there would be massive abuse and honest customers would suffer with hugely increased prices to cover the costs. So assessment based on knowledge of the parts and the history of issues that have been seen is all that can be done. I do think too many companies abuse this, and deny claims they know to be legitimate. But Framework doesn’t strike me as being like that.
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There are SOOOO many cases of Framework support going above and beyond despite this usually entailing a financial loss on their end. To sit here and say that they are intentionally wasting your time smacks of you not understanding that the world is much larger than you.
Your standard warranty has run out, but your state has an additional period of time for warranties in law. Now unless the law surrounding CID claims are spelled out, Framework has done nothing wrong, and in fact is in the right here.
Here is why I think this:
Testing and engineering of commercial products are intense and thorough. This testing is not perfect. However, in all of the laptops Framework has sold the number of cases were the key has split in the way yours has are rare or non-existent. (once again, this is my guess)
On the other hand, the world we live in is defined by the laws of physics and more that we have not or cannot currently define. These laws say that actions cannot happen without other actions. Meaning that miraculous key splitting is not a thing. There had to be an appropriate action repetitive or sudden that occurred and resulted in the keycap splitting.
It is not rocket science to say that under normal use such a thing is not possible, especially when a split key is not happening elsewhere on your keyboard or other users. I have had my FW 13 for years now. I’ve typed a lot on it. I don’t even know how the key could split to begin with.
Combine this with your attempts at smearing them here and on other social platforms and your story seems fishy to me.
Furthermore, as a smaller company they need to make sure that their kindness is not being taken advantage of. Returns and warranty cases can sink companies.
NOW, if your key really did just split and you have been using it normally (IE: you are not a keyboard masher or something), this is disappointing for you. I can totally agree with that. But I would just ask you to try to see it from Framework’s position. AND, your keyboard is fixable in not one but two ways.
Is it really justified to try to tear down the only company making such a repair possible?
NOTE: I do not work for Framework, and am not an official employee in any way.
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Note - I’m the guy from Review of hardware durability and repair (1.5 years)
My personal experience is that Framework support leaves me with a mild sense of meh. I travel a lot, so it doesn’t make sense sometimes to contact them as I wouldn’t be able to get the part most of the time.
My experience:
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I replaced the keyboard. You can compare the initial and final pictures as the paint job got worse, but the real reason for replacement is that 2 years in, the alt key quit working.
1Y keyboard paint job
2Y keyboard paint job
For my keyboard wear and tear, I’m really not sure that was due to usage, I would suspect it’s a bad paint job. I finally had to replace it because the alt key went bad (2 years in - definitely out of warranty). 5 months after replacement, this keyboard is not having any paint stripping / bubbles, so my assessment is likely correct. -
The initial and replacement power cables both ended up being frayed. I only contacted support out of warranty for the first one. Should it have been replaced if it’s a known issue even out of warranty? Not really sure, but it is sure irritating to order a second one and also have it be frayed in a few months(not sure the exact timeline, but disappointing). I got a braided usb cable from Walmart instead. Note - I did not contact support for the 2nd one as I’m travelling, but perhaps I should.
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I wanted to order a matte screen and it was not shippable. They contacted me and said they would ship it even though they screwed up. Which is totally awesome. Unfortunately, due to travel I still couldn’t get that ordered.
Regarding OP, given the likelihood that I’m in the 99th percentile of laptop abusers, I can say there’s really no way that a key should split like that, so I’m having difficulty understanding how this could possibly be customer induced. It’s also highly unlikely that OP would be purposely breaking a key to file an issue. Customer induced damage definitely seems like an unfortunate way to end this issue, but humans are involved and maybe they were having a bad day when they made the assessment.
It happens.
Anyway, the company is growing and evolving, and the reputation will be solidified in the next few years and hopefully, support can evolve to consistently be awesome.
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So many people in this forum and on Reddit seem to have real trouble with this. I support you OP. I spent a month doing backflips for support with absolute non-sequitur tasks.
I hope you get it sorted, or find a laptop from a company with more integrity.
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I don’t think it applies in this case.
Wording is : “The item is seriously defective.”
We’ve got similar consumer protections in the UK, and a split key wouldn’t be covered by that. If the mainboard failed and the computer wouldn’t turn on, then that’s seriously defective. The computer still works fine, apart from the missing keycap. Which the OP could superglue back together.
Apple covered my out of warranty MacBook Pro for Radeongate under the equivalent UK law.
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The part you quoted was just one of the steps in how I think the procedure would have gone. To explain why I don’t think they said it was customer induced in response to being faced with the state’s longer implied warranty. Rather, they just didn’t get to that assessment yet.
Whether it would actually be covered under the state’s implied warranty is another matter.
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The point is that by going from 0-60 (your first response after they told you it was CID was to threaten legal action) you almost guarantee you will get a poor customer service experience.
The assertion FW was “leading you on” seens to be predicated on the notion that they knew from the outset that they would not provide an RMA - but you’ve given no reason to believe this is true. They clearly asked for detailed pictures of the unit to ascertain whether or not the damage was due to manufacturing defects or QA issues.
You assert that FW invented the CID claim to absolve themselves of the warranty implied by Maine state law. However the chain of communication provides no evidence that this is true. They refused RMA due to the unit being out of warranty. They did not identify the cause of the damage and indeed, in the event the item is out of warranty there is no benefit to accusing the customer of CID. If you’d reserved the litigious comments until after asking pertinent questions such as “what do you believe was the cause of this keycap failure, based on documentation I provided” you might have had a stronger case.
Now all you have is a litany of examples from around the web of you attempting to pressure FW into a different decision by essentially badmouthing the company. Which is kind of funny given your candor in the early emails re: additional purchases.
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