Just Josh video review

Framework Laptop 12
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Hot take: The Macbook Air is far superior to the FW 12, and some people absolutely should buy it instead. It is quieter (silent), heats up less, has a far faster CPU with better iGPU performance, and way better battery life. It has a nicer display, backlit keyboard, sleeker build that feels more high end and is far more rigid, and will just be a smoother, more hassle-free experience. It’s better, buy it.

Hot take the 2nd: The Framework 12 is far superior to any Macbook, and some people should absolutely buy it instead. It is a 2-in-1 device with a touch-screen and pen support, it is fully user-repairable and upgradeable, it can run Windows, or Linux, or both at the same time. The company is very open about the fact that you own the hardware. They not only allow but even encourage experimentation and modification, as well as encouraging others to make third-party parts and accessories. It’s better, buy it.

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This comparison doesn’t make sense. You are only allowed to compare single aspects (for example the cpu) of the two devices. :grin:

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Soldered ssd is where I draw the line, soldered ram can be somewhat justified but soldered ssd is a few steps too far.

I do kinda want a fw12 as a toy but the lack of usb4 and the low res display (I can live with pretty bad quality but not enough pixels is not enough pixels, fonts only scale down so far) are kind deal-breakers to me. Then again I already have an fw 13 so I am not really in the market for a new laptop anyway.

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I will say that while it is definitely on the lower end of the price/performance value scale, it doesn’t quite fall to the realm of suckage.

Even looking only at the price to performance side of things, there are other 2-in-1s out there with similar CPU, 8GB of soldered RAM, and a mediocre screen, that aren’t all that much different in price to a FW 12. Granted, they aren’t a good price/performance value either, but the FW 12 isn’t dramatically worse than everything else out there. I guess that isn’t saying much, lol.

Yeah, I forgot to mention the more egregious (than soldered RAM) soldered SSD.

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benstor i think you should take a chill pill, i’m having trouble even understanding your posts. i don’t think anyone here is saying that fw is bad.

have a juice box :3

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My comment on the bezels is that because this is a touch device intended to be used in tablet mode, bezels allow you to grab the screen without constantly entering input on the screen.

I can understand wanting smaller bezels, but for me I think the bezels on the FW 12 are fine, and they help make the display replacement / repair what it is.

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The thing looks more than thick enough to be held without touching much of the front, and even if you did you would not need anywhere near as much as you get.

They are fine, not good or exceptionally bad but fine.

Don’t think that has much of an impact on repairability here, the inactive glass also needs to be replaced with the display if you break it so having more or less of it being screen doesn’t do much.

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actually i think i can refute this, some folks with neuropathy or other conditions may need to rest their hand on the side of the screen, and the bezel gives them some space to do that.

personally i don’t understand people’s seeming obsession with minmaxxing the bevel to screenspace ratio, and especially using it as a pricing argument, but to each their own i guess. i don’t mind the bezels on the fw12, it reminds me of the earlier gen ipads

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Fair enough, though there are probably workarounds that would not ruin it for the rest of us.

There is probably an area excessive min-maxing to the point of having to cut holes into your screens (and then call them something fancy and sell it as a feature) and going full 2010s giga bezels. I do quite like the ratio in the 13.

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Soldered SSD is a dealbreaker

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Yeah, but did you consider that a macbook is hella expensive if you put a lot of memory and storage in it? Also framework as a company is more about user-repairability and does not lock the user in a walled garden! So it doesn’t make sense to compare you not understanding my posts with other people saying something bad about framework.

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Full credit to the Framework team for trying to do something incredibly difficult and ambitious. I love the look of the 12 (I think they nailed that) and the moment it was announced I instantly wanted to buy one for my daughter. I feel I am fairly representative of the intended market - tech savvy person, linux user, FW13 owner, support right to repair, purchaser for kids.

Having to buy laptops for multiple kids is expensive for regular people and you don’t want to buy anything too fancy and have it fall off a desk. So flexy cheap plastic and poor colour reproduction are acceptable. And so is a crappy processor. My kid’s school requires Windows. It doesn’t require touch and pen compatible flip screens which are an over-design increasing costs. School also doesn’t require lavender or bubblegum styling even if we like them.

Lets compare with a machine made for this market. The alternative is a well known taiwanese brand that is perpetually on sale here that I have bought twice previously for kids. I have to rip one full apart to replace a keyboard with some sticky keys after several years of use so they aren’t perfect - but replacement keyboards are available in country and ship in a few days - its just a pain.

Comparing to a prebuilt i5 for true like for like: both 13th gen I5, 16GB socketed replaceable ram, 512GB replaceable nvme ssd, Windows 11 home. The alternative has a marginally faster 1335 vs 1334 and dual channel ram so should have faster igpu performance but much the same. Smaller bezels so the alternative is only 3cm wider and 200g heavier despite having a 14" screen with other dimensions almost the same. Similar 45-50% NTSC colour IPS - different aspect ratios and resolutions but they don’t matter for this use. Alternative has 1 usbc (3.2gen2, PD), 3 usba (3.2gen1), microsd, hdmi, rj45 so everything needed with no dongles being lost at school vs pick 4 and extra costs for fw12. Alternative only has 45wh vs 50wh battery but they get through a school day no problem. The alternative will cost me $749AUD on sale (they are often discounted). The FW12 prebuilt will cost $1739AUD or 2.3 times the cost. I can buy 2 equal spec machines, keep one in a cupboard for a spare, and use the $249 I saved to buy some school clothes. $1700AUD is a crazy price for a bargain basement laptop. It is more than an entry level Macbook Air.

Yes, Frameworks are more upgradable but I can’t justify the costs of upgrading my FW13 let alone my kids FW12 because the parts are so expensive. It could cost be half as much again or more to upgrade the motherboard, particularly if it requires new RAM, wifi etc. Then I could have bought 3 sensibly priced alternatives for the price.

People will say you can do a DIY model and buy cheaper ram and hdd and not register Windows (unfortunately Linux isn’t an option) but you still can’t get close to that alternative’s price.

Framework are in a very tough business. I love what they are doing and I will do my best to support them if I can but I can’t ignore reality. The harsh reviews generally miss the point. The low spec stuff is a feature in this market. The problem is the pricing and low production volume.

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I think for any comparison with Apple Macbook lineup, you really need to compare base models if price is to be considered as a comparison factor. (i.e. 16GB RAM, 256GB storage)

Like, given Framework’s target audience for the FL12 for students / education / [lower] budget sector, the base model of MBA, IMO, IS a comparative device. Question then becomes how high repairability, pen / stylus support, 2-in-1…and other capabilities are on the priority list. To each their own.

Idea is, everything is comparable really. I can compare orange to apple, till kingdom come. Comparing alone is useless if there’s no purpose usecase to match them to.

Example 1:
Compare an airplane to an apple. One has wings, one doesn’t. One I can’t own, one I can. Use case 1: For breakfast → Apple.
Use case 2: Get to Paris → airplane.

Example 2:
Compare a knife to a gun. One needs bullets for full function, one needs a sharp edge and point.
Use case: You’re John Wick, either one is good for CQB to throw, with or without bullet.

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“It doesn’t perform well enough to be a daily driver for someone like a serious programmer”

Who is this “serious programmer” that needs more power?

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Yeah, I think we need that objective definition of what a “serious programmer” does / means.

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Comment about the bezel size, I believe it plays a part in the 810H drop tests, specifically the corner drops.

If you need thin bezel and drop survival, that’s going to require some pricey R&D.

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…and can someone really write well with a grip like this?

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Because from a sales data integration (think data aggregation), sites like B&H and Best Buy have multiple brands. Framework don’t sell on those sites, and building an additional single integration to Framework Store for only Framework laptop…well, that’ll be bias.

(I assume you’re referring to https://www.bestlaptop.deals/)

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You’re not wrong there.

Though my statement was always meant as:
In a time where you can buy a real strong cpu for a thousand dollars (not mentioning any names or brands - I learned my lesson) the FW12’s weak cpu does put the laptop’s value proposition into perspective.

In simpler words: People will think twice to pull the trigger on a FW12 purchase after they configured it and see it will cost them near to or over a thousand dollars when in the back of the head they know that they can have a way stronger cpu for a thousand dollars.

See? It is not a comparison of the two products. I didn’t even mention the product you would need to buy for this “real strong cpu”. Neither am I saying ‘the other product is better, buy that’, because, again, I don’t even name any other product, so it can’t possibly be a purchase recommendation!

All I am talking about is things that are being put into perspective by other things. This manifests in a slightly different evaluation of the FW12’s value proposition.

So in conclusion, one can say that the FW12’s weak cpu is hurting the FW12’s perceived value proposition.
I hope it is clearer now…

I just interpreted it as ‘a programmer that needs to compile often and or a lot’.

That’s funny!

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My question exactly. Only, I’ll ignore the hollywood-ized idea of a “hacker” programmer here and work from reality.

What is the difference between a Framework 13 with the fastest AMD or Intel chip in it and the Framework 12 with a 13th gen i5 and 64gb of RAM from a compilation stand point? (Heck compare this to a beefy workstation desktop as well, same answer.)

Answer: Some amount of seconds. And I assure you that the compiled executable from the less powerful machine is every bit as good as the system that compiled it seconds faster. They are identical, in fact.

TL,DR: The Framework 12 is MORE than capable of being used by a “serious” programmer.