LTT Secret Shopping Framework Discussion Thread

General Topics
21

I have already suggested this to FW, but they could improve their BIOS to help streamline their support engineers time.
For example, if the boot up flashing LED pattern was modified to identify which RAM chip was the problem, instead of any users needed to do a RAM shuffle, it would save everyone a lot of time.
E.g. one light for each of the following cases (instead of a current single flash for all 4.

  1. Slot 1 chip detected / slot empty.
  2. Slot 2 chip detected / slot empty.
  3. Slot 1 chip OK/Not Ok
  4. Slot 2 chip OK/Not OK.
    Similarly for each M2 slot.

There are other improvements. e.g. If there is an external monitor attached, default to the BIOS screens being on the external monitor. This would make fault finding related to the laptop’s own display easier.

22

Agree.

For example: That captive screw catching the lid (not the bezel) is a design oversight IMO. If the edge of the lid in that area is ever so slightly curved, rather than the right angle…then it wouldn’t have caught so hard.

…but I would also say that Framework being a laptop company, it’s not just the hardware, it’s the UX, before, during and after sale. The competition is tough when you look beyond just the hardware itself.

23

I’ve never been one to complain or talk poorly about customer service, etc. But maybe I’m getting crotchety as I get older, lol. Who knows.

I’ve had several great experiences with Framework support. However, the one I’m dealing with right now could certainly be better.

First, it took nearly two weeks for them to reply to the initial ticket, and that only happened after I replied to the ticket, asking for updates. However, a very reasonable and timely set of exchanges occurred after that, culminating in support shipping out a new mainboard to hopefully resolve my issue.

Unfortunately, after receiving and installing it, I found the replacement mainboard was defective and unusable. I sent them a reply, detailing the issue and extensive troubleshooting done, as well as the fact that I swapped back to my original mainboard and confirmed that the new issue was not present on the original mainboard.

Four days later, I finally got a reply. They wanted to confirm that they were good to close the ticket, since my original mainboard solved the issue.

What? It doesn’t seem like they read or understood the situation properly. This was a different responder than all the others. In fact, I’ve seemingly had five different people respond to the ticket at different times. Sure, the original mainboard “solved” the issue that the replacement board introduced. But the original issue remains with the original board.

I still understand, and I’m not mad. I just can see how that type of interaction could be pretty frustrating for people who just need their machine to work and don’t have weeks to go back and forth with support on misunderstandings like that.

4 Likes
24

LoL…code mainboard merge…or maybe they think you’re Louis …donor board.

Update: Just in time…fix your own boards…lol

25

I have to say my experience with support was not great but then I was one of the very few trying to get someone to listen that there was a CMOS battery issue with the 11th gen.

But as is the case, not giving in to gas-lighting from Framework and derision from other forum members finally got it recognised and worked on.

Just keep pushing and don’t get fobbed off.

3 Likes
26

My experience summary

Support has slow, incomplete communication, wastes hours of my time with very questionable testing on their behalf, and has now had my $2,039.93 computer for nearly 8 weeks with no end in sight and no communication besides “we are committed to resolving this matter as swiftly as possible.”

More background

I preordered the Framework 16 in early May and initially received it June 12. The price was quite high ($2,039.93 for my configuration) just considering performance, but I really liked the customizability and the idea of being able to add a GPU later. After initially receiving the laptop, I reached out to Framework support asking about expected performance. My scores seemed a bit lower than what LTT and NotebookCheck reviews indicated I should be seeing. After three weeks with me doing a ton of testing with questionable value on their behalf, they sent me a replacement mainboard in July. They never did say what performance I should expect. After more issues (major issue being macropad stopped working, other issues being maybe bent heatpipes and one USB port not working), Framework asked me to ship the entire computer to them. I did so on August 15, within an hour after finishing my final exam for a summer class and 1.5 weeks before my fall classes started on August 26. It’s now been 7.5 weeks since I sent them my laptop, and they’ve provided no estimate whatsoever on when I should expect it back. I expected Framework to keep it for max 2 weeks. Now I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes them 3 months or even more. Thankfully I’ve been able to borrow my wife’s computer to continue doing my classes, but she’s in school too and therefore we can’t both be doing our schoolwork at the same time. Quite inconvenient.

They never even acknowledged they received it at the repair center, let alone have given any indication they’ve started any diagnostics. The only updates they’ve ever provided are when I have reached out. I haven’t reached out in the last 3.5 weeks, and have had zero updates. I expected weekly or at worst biweekly updates. If they had communicated they had no bandwidth to even look at my laptop before I shipped it, I could have continued using it with the broken macropad and used the other 5 working USB ports and the partially degraded performance. But they haven’t communicated anything other than “we are committed to resolving this matter as swiftly as possible,” so in some sense I’ve had zero updates at all since shipping it to them 2 months ago.

1 Like
27

Just an update. It has been another week and I’ve still heard nothing more back from support. Even after replying to summarize the situation (to make sure there was no confusion if a different support person looked at the ticket) and ask for an update. Hopefully I hear something this week. But at least I still have the computer and I can still use it with the original mainboard. So it’s really not a huge deal for me, like it is for some others.

28

I asked for an update again this morning. They finally got back to me this evening. They wanted pictures of both sides of the mainboard, as well as pictures of the mainboard internal and external packaging from “all angles.” I provided that. Well, a few angles, maybe not “all”. Now they want me to re-install the replacement mainboard and take a video demonstrating the problem.

Just over a month since I started the ticket. 25 emails exchanged so far (though, to be fair, three or four of those were basically just me asking for updates afters a few days to a week went by without a response), multiple pictures and videos sent, mainboard swapped twice, hours of time spent, and now I have to swap the mainboard back and forth again. I should have taken a video of the issue with the new mainboard in the first place. But I was just in troubleshooting mode and didn’t think of it until after I’d already switched back to the original mainboard to see if that would solve the new issue. It did and I was like “Well, now I can’t show the issue without switching back again. I hope they don’t ask for that.” They asked, lol.

29

Very early on, I realized that “It’s repairable” means “You fix it, we don’t have a repair centre.” (Even today, it’s outsourced). Meaning, you are the documentation party as well.

I mentioned it awhile ago…having a DIY laptop doesn’t necessarily mean I want to fix it myself. Having a repairable laptop also doesn’t necessarily mean I want to troubleshoot, fix it, and document it myself either.

With so much time dumped into an “I need this fixed” situation…it truly involves some hidden costs.

1 Like
30

I actually don’t mind fixing it myself. I think it’s kinda cool that they will just send parts and let me fix it myself. And I understand that they can’t just assume everyone is doing everything correctly or even telling the truth. But it’s still a little frustrating for them to have me fix it myself, then have them basically say “Yeah, you’re going to have to do it again with pictures and videos to prove it.” Also, I told them it would be a few days before I had time to swap the mainboard back in to get a video of the problem, and asked exactly what all they wanted to see in the video, so I can be sure to get what they need. They replied and simply said they would await my video. Then told me to please follow their mainboard replacement guide. They’re probably just trying to be helpful, but it feels like they are implying I did something wrong, or didn’t follow the guide the first time.

I don’t know. It just feels like there’s always a slight detachment in the back and forth.

I explained the issue with the new mainboard, in detail. Wrote up a detailed list of troubleshooting steps I did with the new mainboard, along with the results. I said I had an RMA issued for my original mainboard and asked if I should use that to send back the replacement instead. I said that, as I had said in my original email, my original mainboard has been reliable, it just has uneven core thermals, and I’m still willing to experiment with other TIM options myself, rather than having them expend the cost of having new mainboards shipped out.

When they finally replied, they simply said they were sorry I was having trouble with the new mainboard and then gave a numbered list of the packaging and mainboard photos they wanted. Not even an acknowledgement of anything else I said. But that’s fine. I sent the requested pictures, as well as a detailed explanation of the state of the packaging upon arrival, and a video showing how the mainboard box could slide around in the outer, shipping box as it arrived.

Their reply again acknowledged none of that. They simply asked if I could reinstall the new mainboard and get a video, demonstrating the problem. I said I could, but it might be a few days and asked if they could tell me exactly what they want to see. I asked if a short video showing a text box and nothing happening when I press keyboard keys would suffice. They replied and said they would await my video and to please follow the mainboard replacement guide.

I have to think the request for a video of the problem is either a scripted question, or a trust thing. Because there’s no way “keyboard doesn’t work” needs a video to show what I mean.

That’s how the entire interaction has been throughout the process. Also, this is now the fifth or sixth different person who has been replying throughout this process.

None of this is really a criticism, exactly. But it’s honestly getting a bit frustrating. It almost seems like keywords in my emails get flagged and trigger a scripted response. It doesn’t feel like someone is actually reading and considering what I said, and then responding. Maybe that’s just due to how busy they are, but the replies can sometimes feel canned and it makes it feel like they are ignoring you, to an extent.

3 Likes
31

It feels like on the one hand they want us doing a ton to troubleshoot their DIY laptop. But then on the other hand, they ignore the detailed troubleshooting steps we tell them. It has to be their exact request, in their exact order, or they essentially ignore our. So we’re not really troubleshooting for them, we’re just following a series of steps on their behalf.

32

I woke up early this morning (not intentionally, lol), so I went ahead and swapped the mainboard and sent them a video before starting work. Hopefully it doesn’t take a week to hear back this time.

33

If I haven’t already said, the issue with the new mainboard is that the keyboard and numpad don’t work.

Now they want me to re-install the OS and driver bundle, even though, in my last email, I specifically told them that I cannot even use the keyboard to get into the BIOS or boot menu, so it isn’t an OS or driver issue. I should be able to do that without even having a drive installed, much less an OS and driver bundle.

It’s not like the Wi-Fi doesn’t work or the sound is glitchy. The keyboard doesn’t work. An external keyboard works. I can use an external keyboard to get into the BIOS or boot menu. Once in, I still can’t use the built-in keyboard to navigate it. That is 100% independent of any OS or drivers. I really hope they don’t insist I waste more time on drivers and OS.

Also, this last email was from a SEVENTH, different person.

Again, it’s just so strange. It’s like they completely ignore everything but whatever was a direct response to what they asked. They asked for a video. I sent them a video, and also explained that while the video showed the problem while in the OS (which is all I showed them because they also ignored my question as to what all they wanted to see in the video), the problem also exists before boot. Because I cannot get into the BIOS or boot menu, so it isn’t a Windows/driver issue. But they apparently looked at the video, because that’s what they asked for, and ignored everything else I wrote, because they literally said they would review the video, and would also ask me to reinstall the driver bundle and really, with a new mainboard, it would be best to do a fresh OS install.

I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and maybe I still am. But I’m teetering on the edge. It really feels like I’m conversing with an AI that auto-generates a new name every once in a while. If that’s not the case, then they need to read and consider the replies a bit better, before requesting canned follow up steps. If I’d just bought this DIY laptop, how would I install an OS in the first place, if the keyboard didn’t work without the OS and driver bundle?

1 Like
34

I sympathize, I understand support is not easy and mistake do occur but this description of your interactions reminds me of mine (2022), I remember thinking the next agent (the names changed with almost each email back then too) just isn’t reading the prior exchanges or is stretched too thin to read them with any consideration.

35

I just got another reply. They asked for a bunch more pictures and told me to try the keyboard in a different position. Which I already did and told them so. I’ve tried every possible combination multiple times. And I told them that weeks ago.

They also asked me if the keyboard worked with the original mainboard, which I already told them many times.

I never asked for this. I didn’t ask for a new mainboard. My very first message to support said that my mainboard has been reliable and I didn’t need them to sent me a replacement. I just wanted to verify that my thermal results were outside of expectations, and I was happy to try some steps myself to improve thermals. They “determined” that they were going to send me a mainboard. Now they have put me through a month of pictures and tests and videos and more pictures and are wanting me to spend yet more time and effort troubleshooting a mainboard that I never even asked them to send me. I even offered to just send it back using the RMA they gave me for the original mainboard and just go back to the idea of trying to improve the thermals myself. But they keep asking me to do more and more testing with the new mainboard that DOESN’T WORK!

36

I assume that you already have done so, but I would politely ask for the case to be escalated, and insist that it be. Things are far past ridiculous at this point.

1 Like
37

I can understand that. But this then becomes a one size fits all scenario, for every incident. Maybe it’s still not apparent to some, but when you have a fix-it-yourself situation during the in-warranty period, the power dynamics is different. Now, Framework has the carrot (your replacement part)…and they say jump, you say how high. Whereas with traditional warranty, you send it in (or they come on-site), then it’s on them to deal with.

Even though there are, what appears to be, 3rd party repair centres in some regions, the experience varies.

There needs to be ‘options’ to choose to fix it myself, and / or send it away, and/or have someone come on-site, on a per-repair / incident basis.

With regard to spending on R&D, I’m all for it… The products need to be better* given the price bracket, AND more reliable right out of the gate, AND stay reliable. Without the hardware reliability, it just eats into support and parts cost.

38

I just noticed that in addition to pictures of the underside of the keyboard and both sides of the midplate, they also asked for pictures of the mainboard. I sent 26 megapixel images of both sides of the mainboard yesterday, at their request.

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t mean to derail this thread with my own support story. Originally, I thought it was relevant, because it showed that the issues LTT brought up wasn’t only a “past” issue, but an ongoing one. But now I’m sort of turning the thread into my own support story. I’ll let it go for now. You all get the ideal.

39

They said that they don’t understand why the keyboard wouldn’t work on the new mainboard, so they can’t escalate the ticket until they can visually inspect the mainboard. So I need to send more pictures. Even though I already sent pictures of the mainboard. Sorry, I know I said I was done, lol. But I wanted to address this.

40

@BigT I appreciate you sharing and it seems on topic to me.

I emailed my support again asking for an update since it’s been 8 freaking weeks. Still nothing. How can they be “actively working” with their repair center for 8 weeks and have no clue whatsoever of status. They can’t even tell me something like “you started at #100,000 in line, now you are at #80,000 in line”.

Thank you for reaching out. We apologize for the frustration and inconvenience you’ve experienced.
Unfortunately, we are unable to provide specific updates on your position in line as we rely on information from our repair center. We are actively working with them to obtain update and will share any new information as soon as we receive it.
We appreciate your patience and understanding in this matter. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to reach out to us.

Absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable.