To be clear, I’m upset because it goes against Framework’s principles. Clustering them for AI seems like it will be really good, but how does that represent repairable and upgradeable consumer electronics? I don’t think it does. It has a place, but I think they might have been better off calling it Framework AI Core or something so that it doesn’t seem like a main Framework product, but they’re trying to sell them and make AMD happy, so that might not go over with AMD well.
Edit: I’m trying to say I get why they did it, but it isn’t representative of their principles. II just hope that it’ll make money to put into improving firmware.
Can’t disagree with you, somethings could be better (firmware cough).
I know I may be too naive, but I do hope when the next iteration happens we get CAMM modules. That AMD sees that framework costumers liked the product but that their main complaint was the RAM situation.
I agree with you re: Framework’s most important sellling proposition, but you’ve described Framework’s biggest challenge at the same time.
That is that the money and sales volume is elsewhere (where the hundreds of Chinese companies are making cheaper, high-volume alternatives). Even though we true-believers in Frramework’s mission may be willing to pay a high premium to support them, we are still very few in number relative to the mass market.
Think of it like this: imagine Framework is a niche sub-genre punk band that caters to a very tightly-knit community of hardcore fans. If they want commercial success, they’ll have to “sell out” and turn punk-pop to get access to the massive mainstream listener base. In doing so, they threaten to alienate their hardcore fans.
Framework could be doing this in order to “follow the money,” to raise revenues to stay alive to continue the partially-compromised mission.
It may be why they are going for the massive education market with the Framework 12. Lock in some juicy gov’t school contracts, and then they can sustain the on-mission Framework models.
Framework is currently entirely incapable of supporting such a contract. They have difficulties supporting their current clientele, they cannot win a support contract and keep it with the support experience they offer currently.
They simply do not have the manpower. It’s not hate, it’s just a fact. They currently offer B2B sales and I haven’t seen a single positive report regarding the SLA.
I agree, BUT if they land the business, they can then approach investors or lenders and say, “hey, we have this contract, give us money right now to hire the staff to support/fulfill the contract.”
It’s a gamble/risk for sure, but it looks to me that someone in marketing is taking that gamble by trying to build massive hype with this “Framework Gen. 2” event and two new product lines to rally excitement around. They are clearly going for drawing in new prospects rather than pleasing existing fans by:
a) fixing firmware
b) spreading shipping to all countries
c) increasing warranty length
d) improving freebie warranty replacements to increase customer satisfaction and evangelism
e) releasing new GPU modules for the FW16
f) fixing the minor annoyances of the FW13 and FW16 like fit-and-finish
They’re clearly going for new growth if you think about how they could have spent money on the above common complaints.
I’ve been noticing a lot of positive press for the Framework desktop.
Kudos to the Framework team. I love seeing the company getting recognition for creating forward thinking products.
Regarding the integrated memory and CPU… and that it’s not upgradeable: At one time, we had the North Bridge. It was obviously inferior to onboard DIMM and PCIe circuitry that started with the Nehalem processors. I wonder if it isn’t time that, instead of lamenting the lack of upgradeability, we are entering an era where this sort of thing is just better? I would rather lament Apple’s overpricing than automatically lamenting the loss of RAM upgradeability. I generally purchase as much ram as I can afford from the get-go. Later, when I need more RAM, it’s time to upgrade the machine anyway. The newer generations are that much better.
Maybe we are not entering a new era, but I find that some of my favorite chips like the M1 series on the MacBook are featuring integrated GPUs. And the AMD chip in the Framework Desktop looks like a beast. I notice that the AMD Ryzen AI 7 350 is pumping out a better benchmark than the 7940HS in my Framework 16, at 50% the TDP of the 7940HS. I know that the AI 7 350 is not featured in the Framework Desktop, but I can only imagine that the Framework Desktop chip is that much better.
I wonder if it isn’t time that, instead of lamenting the lack of upgradeability, we are entering an era where this sort of thing is just better?
I suppose it depends upon what your opinion would be for just better. Soldered RAM clearly has its specific uses, and for those uses, I have no doubt that it will work very well. However, for others who may not care about having the best iGPU or quickest 256 bit RAM, me for instance, I would personally value the ability to upgrade or downgrade my RAM as I desire, for me this is better. Others may value the quick RAM speeds and vast amount of memory sharing ability with the iGPU on this CPU to be better for their work uses and not value the ability to upgrade their RAM at all, or less value of upgrading RAM VS the advantages of soldered memory in this case.
me for instance, I would personally value the ability to upgrade or downgrade my RAM as I desire, for me this is better
So, buy the case and PSU, then stick a mini-ITX motherboard in there with an Ryzen 8x00G processor (or, go Intel I suppose)… then you’re free to pick your own spec.
I’m happy with the trade-off of the soldered RAM given the performance of the APU. Overall, the pricing does seem fair (so speaks an Apple user) and the storage options are pretty cool… so this is way more appealing to me than a Mac Mini, for example.
@Destroya I’m glad the FW16 is still on the radar for upgrades. I was disappointed there wasn’t much for it. I think like many people, I thought it was going to be one of the main laptops for upgrades.
I don’t believe the 8x00G line has an NPU. And those chips are flawed in other ways as well…
But my point wasn’t about being able to make the everything-everywhere-all-at-once with a cherry on top computer that everyone seems to be complaining doesn’t exist … it was showing there are options.
All of these options have compromises; decide your use case, pick an option, accept your compromise.
Epson have a eco-tank (or straight up piped tank versions) of pretty much everything. If you want to convert your inkjet to run on external tanks, Epson will sell the kit. You can then just … buy ink bottles. And put them in. Very cheap, as well.
And while Canon has offered a printer subscription, they probably just followed the steps of hp, and while their ink is expensive, their printer is at least more expensive and offer increased functionality. And they don’t ban 3rd party ink.
Brother has a subscription, but the pricing isn’t crazy (?)
Commercial ones typically have weird toner requirements, but not all of them do, either.
It’s a fight Framework don’t really need to involve in, unlike laptops.
Dell, yeah have “modular GPU”, but it’s DGFF (Dell Graphics Form Factor), and is closed source. Gouges people on RAM and storage pricing regardless, even if they offer SODIMM, or CAMMs, or m.2/SATA, and offer fully-proprietary desktops (basically). MSI is now “Multiple Serious Issues”, they have gotten better but has more problems than Framework even after a long time, and their support is bad. Hp is the “hinge problem”, and dont really even offer more upgradability than Dells.
I mean you are going to be getting a new GPU (8060S?), and a new board with a new chip on it. Ortholinear keyboard, and modular keyboard concept.
I guess Framework gambled on the use of discretes, instead of a 120W TDP APU. That said, only AMD is doing that, and you make big sacrifices, like the soldered, “unified” RAM.
