Title says it all - In the last 3 days I received my FW16, spec’d to the 9’s because I thought I’d treat myself. Sadly, despite my troubleshooting efforts, I’ve experienced an extremely frustrating issue that I believe to be hardware related, however I’d like to see if the community can think of anything that I haven’t yet. I’ve also submitted a support ticket, however I would imagine that due to the holiday season, support may be understandably backlogged.
Essentially what happens is that every 10-30 seconds, my input deck appears to just die. It’ll power on, keyboard/touchpad/numpad all appear to be working, then it’ll fail, reinitialize, then the keyboard/touchpad/numpad are available for a brief time. It is doing this ad infinitum. Because NixOS is technically not a supported OS outside of community support, the below troubleshooting has been done exclusively in W11 24H2.
Troubleshooting done already:
Check all pogo pin connections across all input devices as well as the mid plate for any discernable damage - none found
Remove/reconfigure into every possible orientation for all input devices
Test from within the BIOS to rule out potentially bad drivers within OS - Error is persistent
Remove/re-add midplate multiple times ensuring that the ribbon cable that connects to the mobo is seated correctly and the plastic guides are lined up correctly
Visually inspect midplate ribbon cable and header - No signs of damage/wear (it’s a brand new system so this would be unlikely imo)
Remove/re-attach battery
Boot with battery disconnected to rule out bad battery connection
Disable all non-input deck related I/O in BIOS to rule out a hardware fault elsewhere
Remove my Linux drive entirely to rule out issues dealing with the dual drive setup
Move my W11 install to the primary drive to rule out issues booting only from a 2230 instead of the primary 2280 slot
Test with external mouse and keyboard via USB-C dock - These don’t seem to disconnect when this occurs leading me to believe it is strictly something to do with the midplate or possibly the motherboard
If you have any suggestions at all that I haven’t tried, please let me know. I’m fairly convinced that it’s a hardware failure because the issue is present when in the BIOS, however I’d love to be wrong and be able to use my new computer for more than 15 second intervals
System Specs:
FW16 DIY Edition
CPU: Ryzen 7940HS
Expansion: dGPU Expansion (AMD Radeon 7700S)
RAM: Crucial 32 GB 5600MHZ Kit (2x16) - Part number CT2K16G56C46S5
Storage: Primary - M.2 2280 WD Black 2TB SN850X, Secondary - M.2 2230 WD Black 1TB SN770M
Input Modules: Keyboard, Numpad, Trackpad, 2x Spacers
OS:
Primary Drive - Nixos 24.11 with Linux Kernel 6.12.7 (though I’ve tried to make this work with many different kernel versions
Secondary Drive - W11 24H2
BIOS: 3.05 (current as far as I can tell by documenation)
With the amount of testing you’ve done, it hard to think of what else to check.
Does a device show up in dmesg as connecting and disconnecting repeatedly? The mid-plate has an usb hub chip, and there is a module presence pin for each location. A malfunction in either could cause or trigger disconnection.
The keyboard, numpad, touchpad always disconnect and reconnect together as a group?
Does your fingerprint reader stay connected during this?
~edit~
As I was writing, I realized one thing to check, which I don’t see you mention in your list. Did you try disabling the module presence detection? There is an option for it in the BIOS iirc. I believe there is a chip in the mid-plate that all the module presence pins feed into. It could be malfunctioning.
Are the disconnects pretty regular? You say every 10-30 seconds. No disconnects 0-10 seconds after the input modules come back to life?
If it was truly random, then an individual connection getting broken could be a potential. Any single module presence pin breaking contact should take out everything, all upper modules + touchpad (as a short prevention safety function).
I didn’t bother to check this, but it’s a great suggestion to do so. I didn’t have Fedora/Ubuntu ready to go and I wasn’t sure if I’d receive any support if I was trying to troubleshoot with a non-supported OS so I didn’t even think to check dmesg logs. That being said, I did monitor it in Device Manager in W11 and see the continual disconnects/reconnects as it was happening.
Upon checking dmesg on my NixOS drive, yes, I see the continual disconnect/reconnects in the dmesg logs as well. Seems like it’s detecting it as a new device continually
Yeah, the whole deck dies altogether, fingerprint reader included. I actually had to disable the fingerprint reader specifically in the BIOS because it was causing the system not to be able to reboot while it was re-initializing when I would attempt to restart the machine. Keyboard/numpad/trackpad don’t seem to cause the system to hang when rebooting for whatever reason.
Seems sort of random within that 0-30 second window after the issue starts. I have noticed that if the machine has been off for any length of time, it’ll take a while (5-10 minutes or so) for this error to crop up. Thinking about it now, could potentially be more mainboard related if it’s somehow related to once the machine reaches a certain thermal threshold. That being said, the fans appear to be working and I’ve not seen the machine reach anything outside of spec temps so I didn’t think about thermals much more beyond that.
I just tried this and it’s been about 30 minutes since the last disconnection. I haven’t used the machine all day due to work needing to get done, so we’ll see how real this is as a solution. But that would point pretty firmly at the chip you mentioned malfunctioning
Thank you for all of your help by the way. Very much appreciate the willingness to provide some suggestions
EDIT:
After further troubleshooting, I can confirm it’s definitely something to do either with the midplate entirely or the module presence detection chip. Switching the BIOS option to “Force On” for this, fixes things. Switching it to “Require Modules” and the lightshow (due to backlights of the modules) begins again.
Here’s hoping support sees this exhaustive troubleshooting and sends me a new midplate
The randomness I think makes it harder to have to pin down.
Regarding the lack of it happening before the laptop warms up, well temperature can just effect so much.
The fingerprint reader doesn’t actually run through the mid-plate, but it could still be effected by a problem coming from the input deck. There is an usb hub that is shared between both. It’s located on the mainboard, but something on the input deck could be causing it to reset.
At least the BIOS setting has helped it work better while you wait for support.
From what I’ve read of other people’s experiences, I feel like support may not be able to skip the troubleshooting which is outlined for them. Unfortunately.
Seems like BIOS or EC is going crazy because it intermittently sees input modules as missing.
Have you tried setting “Force Power for Input Modules” in Advanced BIOS settings to always enabled? If this would solve the issue, then it would definitely be this detection that causing the problem.
Yes, after my initial post, MJ1 had suggested doing so and that was indeed what was happening. I can fully mitigate the issue by switching this setting on. When I turn it to “require modules”, it resumes the freak out.
After how many days is reasonable to wait to hear a response back from Support beyond the automated “We’ve received your ticket” email from the initial ticket submission? Been 2 days without any human response yet for the issue detailed above…
With the holidays, people buying more and also support being closed for 2 days for Christmas and 2 days for New Year holidays, they might be working through a bit of a backlog at the moment.
Regular support has resumed, but linux support hasn’t yet.
To give an idea, just of possible delay times, back in June when several new products were announced they said response times had fallen to 3-5 business days. Hoping it would return to normal soon.
But I haven’t seen anyone mention recently what the current response time is. They have said that they aim for 1 business day iirc, but it will vary with current load or holiday backlog. I recall some time ago it being said that they don’t or didn’t want to use temporary staff which they know they can’t keep on.
Support and I have replaced basically everything there is to replace. I’m entirely defeated at this point. I have requested a refund and am just waiting on support to honor it/tell me where to ship the device back. Here is what we have replaced thus far to no avail:
Mid plate
Mainboard
All Input Modules
I have also swapped the RAM for known working RAM and replaced the 2280 with a known working 2280
The only log that I’m seeing that is of any substance is I am constantly seeing the following:
“Device USB\VID_32AC&PID_0012\FRAKDKEN0100000000 has been surprise removed as it is reported as missing on the bus.
Count of devices removed: 12”
This is in W11 under Kernel-PnP. If ANYONE has any suggestions in fixing this, please let me know. I can’t help but think this has GOT to be software at this point, but I have no idea what else to even check.
I have reinstalled W11 more times than I can count, as well as reset the mainboard (2 of them now) multiple times. I’ve also flashed the latest BIOS and intalled the latest driver packs both from Framework as well as the chipset drivers directly from AMD, all with no improvement. This is driving me absolutely insane. I just want the device to work . I haven’t gotten to use it at all since purchasing it and it’s a real bummer because this is such a cool product.
You have gone through the gauntlet on this one. I feel there are underlaying issues with Windows 24H2 overall and specifically on an AMD platform.
It sounds like you have literally replaced everything except the original battery, and display at this point.
I do not know if you can get your hands on a 23H2? Build of Windows 11, at least through the Microsoft Windows downloader. You likely can still on the business support pages (the name of them is escaping me currently). It is still the regular Windows 11 OS it just has all the past versions available for IT support staff.
I did not see if someone suggested making a Live USB of Ubuntu LTS 2024 and seeing if the same issues occur. That has all the core drivers for the hardware built into the OS ready to go and should be providing a cleaner means to track down what decide is causing an issue.
Can you say what you have plugged into the 6 expansion slots when this happens?
For other people who have seen this problem, the fix was replacing the mainboard to midplate cable. Have you replaced that? You mentioned replacing parts, but don’t mention replacing the cable.
Hey there @pkunk and @James3 , thanks for your suggestions,
I can’t seem to find a 23H2 version of Windows to test with (though I’m sure I could if I tried hard enough), but I did make an Ubuntu LTS 2024 live usb and the issue persists there as well.
The expansion slot configuration that I currently have set up are as from closest to the screen down to the keyboard:
Left:
USB-C
USB-A
HDMI
Right:
USB-C
USB-A
3.5mm Headphone Jack
I also have an ethernet adapter expansion card that I’ve tested in each slot to try to rule out a bad expansion card, however none of them seem to be the culprit when swapping them out.
EDIT: I have also tested with no expansion cards slotted in and the same errors persist.
As far as replacing the midplate cable, I have technically done that in replacing the entire midplate earlier this month.
My only guess is that maybe the fingerprint/power button is failing and causing the bus that runs the input deck to freak out. I have disabled the fingerprint sensor in the BIOS to try to isolate this, however I don’t know if that actually cuts the button off from the circuit/bus since it will still function as a power button.
What I have not tested yet is enabling “power on attaching power supply” in the BIOS and then detaching the ribbon cable that connects the power button/fingerprint sensor to the mainboard physically and powering on the device by attaching the power supply.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I have been ghosted by support at this stage. In parallel I have been updating my support ticket along with this forum post, however I have not received any responses since last Friday
If you connect and external usb keyboard and mouse, do they stay connected?
I can only think that maybe you are installing something wrongly. Can you provide a pic of the keyboard/trackpad all installed?
Some people have had problems installing the mid plate, so it is apparently possible to get it wrong, resulting in it not being seated correctly. It is kind of difficult to spot, so the only suggestion I have is maybe try following the install guide exactly, watching all the videos, and reading all the install guide comments. It might catch something.
While this won’t affect your mid-plate issue – HDMI (or DisplayPort) video output is only supported in Ports 1, 2 & 4. HDMI in Port 3 (as you have it installed) is not supported.
Re: the modules interfacing with the midplate, please see the attached pictures.
I have taken this thing apart maybe 400 times at this point, I’m happy to accept any additional suggestions, however I’m pretty positive now that the issue is not the mating of the devices to the midplate, nor is it how I’ve installed said midplate.
I have combed through both the forums and watched each video of assembly disassembly that I can. To be entirely honest, there’s not much to this thing as far as that goes once you’ve done it a few times, so I’m convinced it’s gotta be hardware somewhere that I’ve not found yet.
That would also corroborate with the issue happening regardless of OS. I’m dual booting between W11 on the 2280 and NixOS on the 2230, though I have also attempted to use Fedora and Ubuntu for troubleshooting as well as NixOS is technically not officially supported. It doesn’t seem to matter whether I’ve got 1 drive or both in there, and I’ve also tested as mentioned before with an entirely separate known working drive, as well as an entirely separate known working pair of RAM modules as well.
Re: external keyboard/mouse, these do not disconnect when the input modules flicker as described. They remain connected. I suspect because the expansion cards are on a separate bus entirely than the midplate.
Re: the HDMI port - Good catch. I didn’t realize this. I have moved it to slot 2 as indicated in the diagram you have attached. I haven’t yet even had a chance to use the machine beyond testing, however having things in the correct places nonetheless is a good idea.
Like I said, I feel like I’ve tried everything at this point…
There is obviously a problem with the touchpad/keyboard detect, as demonstrated by the bios setting to ignore it mitigating the problem.
That feature is supported by a hardware method to detect ‘presence’ and then the EC to do the power on/off of the midplate.
But, you have replaced, keyboard, trackpad, midplate, mainboard (EC), cables.
There is nothing else it could be.
So, I agree with you, just send the whole laptop back.
If you take the laptop to a different building and without the psu plugged in. Do you still have the problem?
I am just thinking, maybe something is interfering via RF with the laptop. So, if you go somewhere far away from the interference it might help.
If that does cure the problem, then it just a matter of unplugging everything in your house until you find the device causing the interference. Hopefully it’s not a neighbour’s device causing the problem.
Sadly, it does not seem to be interference related. I took the device to my work (which is a good 50 km away from my house) and the issue remains.
i guess at this point I just wait for support to respond to my most recent email. Is there a way I can @ them here? I get that they’re probably busy, but I have a limited window to return this thing (and likely order a prebuilt new one so that it goes through some level of QA)
You cannot really contact FW support here. We are all just users like you.
FW support will get back to you. If they don’t after a few days, give them a nudge via email.
. I haven’t gotten to use it at all since purchasing it and it’s a real bummer because this is such a cool product.
