I’m sad to report I just got another Kernel-Power Event ID 41 “The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first.” event only three days after posting this (and 91 days after resetting the Mainboard as above) .
I’ve contacted Support again and will report back if and when there is a resolution. Too early to know if these events will go back to happening much more frequently, but of course even one is more than it should be.
Anyone want to put money down that the recent 3.18 BIOS update installed AI on the ECU and it reads emails and has an evil sense of humor?
TL;DR; After working with support over an additional eight months, and one additional Gen 12 mainboard replacement, this issue was never solved. I’ve concluded this is a hardware defect or failure in multiple Gen 12 mainboards, or possibly a race condition or obscure bug in the EC firmware (on the mainboard).
I tried everything Support suggested other than the boilerplate “reinstall the OS”. Numerous people on this forum have reported that the reinstall did not fix the issue, and support could not confirm there was a way for a fault in the OS to “disconnect the power” without going through a controlled shutdown sequence that wouldn’t produce the ID 41 event. I further researched Event ID 41 and per Microsoft’s documentation this particular event is NOT a result of an OS failure (BSOD, etc.) and suggests contacting the hardware vendor.
After falling into an (AI assisted / generated?) loop of “reinstall the OS” replies without answers to my direct questions on various issues, I sent a somewhat rude reply and Framework’s support stepped up since then did an excellent job attempting to solve this problem, including consulting with engineering. But no success in eight months. I have no idea what percentage of shipping Framework laptops have this issue, but can only comment on my own experience and those in this forum.
Sadly, as enthusiastic as I was initially for the idea of an easily repairable / upgradable DIY laptop, and as pleased as I am with the design and ability to swap out components, I can’t recommend Framework to friends or family. Our latest laptop purchase was another brand. If I was billing for my time working with support on this issue, it would have paid for several “e-wastable” laptops with similar specs. So I’m no longer convinced Framework’s model is viable for most people .
This particular experience with my Framework, and a fried motherboard slightly outside of the 1 year warranty period resulted in my decision to purchase a MacBook Pro and I have not looked back. I had very high hopes for this company, but was ultimately disappointed with this issue and the dead motherboard that would have required more money to be spent to fix a laptop I was already frustrated with.
Keep in mind that the main driver of this issue is the fact Windows defaults to “Modern Standby” which sucks the life out of any machine unless very specific and highly tested changes to an EC stop sucking the power of a machine while in “sleep”.
Sure there is some blame to be shared with Framework however they have a very small team of BIOS specialists compared to the major laptop vendors out there.
Couple this with the fact Framework has some components unique to them; but the majority of parts are off the shelf that already have a proven track record individually. This was and likely still is the best approach to make a mass marketable but specialized pieces of hardware that are repairable and replaceable with the Framework ethos.
It is widely suggested to use hibernation instead of sleep on Windows and most of these issues are not relevant anymore. There is still more progress being made catching EC and BIOS bugs though this takes time and resources. Framework is not for everyone and that is ok too.
Apple makes a fine device for what it is, though it comes in the form of the $$ to join them and a quick search finds numerous design flaws that were solved 20+ years ago in laptop designs but Apple just keeps making them and hopes that AppleCare or warranties will pay to keep the loyalty in the brand.
Creating a device with perpetual upgradability is well within reach of any major laptop manufacturer, none of them have wanted to invest the time and $$ because they are making so much more money on the disposable designs that have made them muitibillion dollar companies.
It is not that far off from the Auto industry, who laughed at electric and hybrid vehicles even though they had the ability and the means to develop them. So someone like Tesla and Rivian came along and now look at the market.
Lenovo’s latest Thinkpad models have a striking similarity to the modularity/repairability of Framework but they keep it reserved for their premium models because they can afford to have the best of both worlds.
One last thought before I end this postulation; any portable device with a low battery condition is neither good for the battery or the electronics. Yet most of this is ignored with today’s users who just think it is ok to run a device down to 2% battery and it should just turn off like regular. If only electronics were that simple and straightforward.
This reinforces my thoughts that the problem may be caused by an EC software error vs hardware, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed that an additional Gen12 BIOS will be released in the future that will fix this problem.
Meanwhile I have moved on to other brands but continue to use the Framework daily. But having two (older) Dells that are rock solid have reinforced to me that Framework’s model may not be living up to my expectations. BTW the Framework is almost always connected to AC with BIOS set to 80% battery when these faults occur, so it is not related to low battery.
And before anyone runs off to buy Dells, I’ve experienced serious problems with two newer Dell laptops. The ones that are solid are older models. But they (and previous solid PCs from other vendors and work machines) set the bar for me.
If a new BIOS solves this problem for me I’ll be sure and update this thread again.
Realized after re-reading my lengthy post that other related elements may not be the case with the original authors issues. If a device lives on AC power for most of its life the 80% does wonders to ensure the battery is in the happiest state for longevity. It is so strange that other manufacturers do not incorporate this in their firmware offerings as it really does extend the battery life. Lots of times their warranty is only for 1 year, maybe three if it is extended, and the warranty replacement rate is pretty low overall.
Not being the case here does help identify that it really is likely related to an EC/BIOS issue and subsequent kernel panic from the OS. There is a BIOS bug tracker on the Framework Github page where this datapoint might help the engineering team narrow down what is going on.
Frequently, users have posted about system shutdowns and reboots and more often than not a low voltage/battery is involved.
There is definitely a trend of the newest laptops that have not held up as well as laptops made years ago. Lots of newer electronics are just not as robust since profitability is the name of the game for many businesses so what may have started as a “square” product has had so many corners cut, everything is rounded out!
Any help for a Framework 13 with BIOS 3.07 that shuts down unexpectedly and cannot run on battery power? The battery shows fine, but it shuts down as soon as unplugged. Randomly shuts down other times too.
I can’t get Framework customer service to respond to me.
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page where this datapoint might help the engineering team narrow down what is going on.
Lots of newer electronics are just not as robust since profitability is the name of the game for many businesses so what may have started as a “square” product has had so many corners cut, everything is rounded out! 