Let's talk about Windows 11 LTSC

General Topics
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Full disclosure: I rarely boot Windows and my daily driver has been Void Linux since I got my Framework 13 AMD. (Tried FreeBSD once, but the hardware support was not there yet. Maybe in a couple years.)

So, Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC is out. Based on my experience with Windows 10 LTSC, I assume this version also has less “bloat” than regular Windows 11. Some people report it doesn’t have that pesky Copilot feature, even.

LTSC, while it technically might be violating some tiny text in the massive unintelligible EULA, is a much better alternative to just “debloating” Windows. Windows is notorious for breaking those “debloated” systems on automatic Windows upgrades. It shouldn’t happen on LTSC because 1) the stock is free of bloat by nature, 2) most updates don’t add features, just security patches.

Still, before I start blindly encouraging people to use the LTSC version, I’d like to collect some user experiences. If you have experiences with Windows 11 LTSC on Framework, please do share!

I will start working on wiping my current 1TB boot-me-Windows expansion card this weekend, and share my findings.

Thanks, and long live the LTSC!

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This aside, I’m interested in getting it for a few of my devices. Where can I purchase it from?

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LTSC versions are intended for companies, businesses. If you own a business, work in IT for one, or have connections, you might be able to get it through there. If you don’t, well, we can’t talk about other options here. Let’s keep the conversation on the general advantages of Win 11 LTSC.

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Bummer…I just reached out to one of the North American distributor…and there were some criteria…none of them applies to an end-user:

  • You’re an OEM. AND
  • You’re going to resell a product. AND
  • The product has a specific fixed purpose.
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Yeah… that’s why I mentioned that we might be violating some agreements.

You should be able to get the image itself from the link I posted above, however, since Windows 11 LTSC is technically still in its evaluation stage, if I understand correctly. I assume by the time Windows Server 2025 is released it won’t be available to public anymore.

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I am yet to try Windows 11 LTSC on Framework, but here is my general feelings towards the LTSC platform. I’ve been using Windows 10 LTSC on my laptop and Windows “gaming” VM for a couple years now.

Lightweight.

They are really minimal. Imagine Windows with only system administration utilities, and that’s about it. Basically Windows XP with different kernel.

It’s so lightweight that you don’t have Microsoft Store installed. If you despise UWP apps, that’s a good news for you. But for me, my Samsung laptop (the one I used before buying Framework) has a driver detector/installer in form of UWP app. In this case, you’re going to have some pain figuring out the dependency and fiddling with PowerShell to install the package.

Stable.

I find LTSC version to be really stable, and it feels like I know exactly what programs are running in the background. I especially like it when Windows actually listens to me and never auto-reboot to install updates.

This is especially useful if you mod Windows with debloater scripts. You can never be more stable than stock.

Bad for some specific cases.

If you are a developer and want to give WSL a try? Well, you gotta do some digging yourself. You need to figure out the right package and install them manually via PowerShell. Not that hard, but still a lot of hassle.

If you develop Windows drivers? Grab a second PC and forget about “trying it on my own PC”. (Well, if you do actually make drivers, you don’t really have to read this thread in the first place.)

But for normal, every-day usage of VS Code and Visual Studio should work. Even Android Studio works just fine, if you enable some features.

It games fine.

I don’t really play AAA games on my laptop, but so far, no games have been working funky. For desktop, it was caused by some bug in between the VM and the Host, so I don’t know which OS is at fault here.

I personally think having bloatware doesn’t really affect the gaming performance much, unless you have like 8 GB of RAM. If you do, having LTSC should help a lot.

I should be able to work on my Framework laptop soon, and share my initial impressions and some oddities, if there is any.

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What about the N version of Windows? They are debloated as well, in the sense that they are not bundled with a ton of Microsoft applications.

I think it is a European thing though, because I tried getting a N license and couldn’t seem to be able to buy one via the US site.

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N, and KN, are European and South Korean variants that lack various multimedia features only.

Back in Windows 7, when I last tested N, it required me to install the media pack before it would even show me the performance rating.

N is nothing exciting sadly.

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Correct. I’ve used KN since Windows 7 days (I’m Korean myself) but they don’t really do much on modern day Windows 10 and 11. Not sure about the N version, but the KN version is the bare minimum Microsoft is doing to comply with the local anti-monopoly regulation.

On a different note, I’ve installed Windows 11 LTSC on my Framework 1TB Expansion Card. It seems to be running OK, but haven’t really gamed on it yet. I’ll go play some Euro Truck Simulator 2 with old Logitech G27 steering wheel to see if they’re up to my compatibility standard!

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Could someone point me to how I can buy a LTSC license? As a normal user? Is that possible?

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As a normal user, basically no, hence the “might be violating…” part in the OP. The evaluation copy will allow you 90 days of access, though.

For more permanent (and technically-not-violating-the-activation-mechanism-but-maybe-violating-EULA) activation, grab a full copy from elsewhere, compare it with the MSDN hash database, install it, and activate with patched hardware ID activation ticket.

If you want more info, then please, never ever, do not check out a GitHub repository massgravel/MAS and it’s linked homepages/documents.

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I daily linux these days but whenever I do use windows it is 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 and it works great. I’ve been playing around with 11 LTSC and it seems to be the same but for 11. Nothing that would really be considered bloat other than edge and it also doesn’t have the arbitrary hardware requirements regular 11 does. When I eventually need to upgrade my Windows machines I will be moving to this. As with 10 LTSC the “IoT” version gets an extra 5 years of support plus the ability to permanently HWID activate using something like MAS so its the obvious choice.

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Sorry for the super late update. Life has been hard recently…

Either way, I’ve been gaming on Windows 11 LTSC for about a month now, and the verdict is: it is absolutely perfect.

Since it requires far, far less storage to install the base OS, you can fit so much more game in the expansion card. Only things in the start menu are Microsoft Edge (to download Firefox and never look back, of course) and Settings app. It’s SO nice.

Compatibility? Fabulous. I was expecting Windows 8 level of compatibility hell, but that is not the case. Most hardware work flawlessly OOTB, granted that you have internet connection for Windows to download drivers automatically.

Here are some gotchas:

You need Windows machine to install it to USB drives.

To be fair, this applies to any Windows installation. If you plan to install directly onto your main drive, this shouldn’t be a problem.

You can have Rufus install Windows for you. (See the Windows To Go options.) Go to a local library or something, download Rufus and Windows ISO, plug your expansion card in, install Windows To Go, then bam, a fresh new Windows LTSC bootable card.

Standard Windows installer won’t cut it, since they will refuse to install themselves onto any “detachable” storage.

Framework drivers are not present.

It means that at first, Windows will boot with absolute minimum generic drivers with horrible performance and limited functionalities. Wi-Fi won’t work, display will look crap, and you’re lucky if the initial boot sound effects don’t destroy your eardrums.

Before you leave that library PC, grab those Framework driver packs and put them in somewhere accessible. After Windows installation, boot into it and install Framework drivers. Reboot, then you have a fresh new snappy Framework laptop.

If you forgot to do so, don’t worry. If you have the Ethernet expansion card, it will work OOTB without Framework drivers. If you have a smartphone, you can also use USB tethering to access internet to download the drivers.

If you have some other opinions, feel free to leave them in the thread!

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ok its looking like i’m going to have a hard time trying to get licensing purchased for 11 IoT. anyone have any tips? it seems plain old VL licensing agreement isn’t enough.

https://www.microsoft.com/licensing/terms/productoffering/WindowsDesktopOperatingSystem/all

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Yep, hoping someone finds a loophole. Honestly funny that this is the version of Windows they should be selling but it is the version that you can’t buy.

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Pipe down peasant, get back to the data collection fields!

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See the last bullet point…that is the clincher right there. It is tailored for embedded system applications. Literally offline applications if necessary.

As an example, we have a pretty expensive tool measuring machine at work with Windows 10 (Probably LTSC, though it doesn’t brag about it when it boots up or show anything different in the System info) and the software that runs on top of “Windows” HAS to work 100% of the time. It never gets updates, never talks to the outside world unless it is told to, refuses all but the most basic networking traffic.

It can have most of the major functions of Windows but the vendor who makes this equipment strips it down so it can not be turned into the heaviest doorstop you have ever seen.

TL;dr example

Interestingly, the MSATA drive was failing in it after only 3 years of service. The replacement drive would have been around $400 from the manufacturer. The technician I worked with figured I knew a few things about computers and let me know the primary MSATA drive it uses is not hard coded to the machine and an “off the shelf” MSATA could be put in place but would take some extra steps to restore the OS, their software and current backup image of the database.

Bought two (2) drives of the same make/size as the original for $100 shipped to the shop, he walked me through the steps to restore and it never missed a beat. Now I have a hot spare for the future as MSATA drives have not been mainstream for about 5 years now.

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I can’t thank you enough for warning me about that site.

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It’s probably supported by… ummm… “tools” if you can’t get any sense out of Microsoft’s AI bots that masquerade as help.

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Yeah, I’ve done some digging, but it is pretty clear that you cannot get a “valid copy” of LTSC unless you run a business that requires an offline, embedded software. I guess starting an arcade game startup is a faster way to obtain a license of LTSC than negotiating with Microsoft and their nonsense.

If you want to run a valid, legitimate Windows, then you have no other choice other than regular Windows 11. As far as I can see (or at least on my Framework), there is no noticeable benefit in performance of games between regular Windows and LTSC version. Apart from the smaller storage footprint, that is.