…Everything is on loan in this life in the grand scheme of things…if we’re talking about philosophy. (I know, I’m taking this reply really really out of context). None of us ever really own anything…not even this life, this body, the house you think you own… Anything can be taken by force without your say so when it comes down to it.
I mean, your gripe with software stems from whether it’s open source or not…and not just a functional / hardware support aspect.
Can you use something and not having full trust of it at the same time? Sure, I do that every day. Trust exist in varying degree of assurance levels.
Your preference / battle is with Windows / Microsoft vs Linux / open source. Hell, I don’t even have full control over my G-Shock from 1980. It tells me which button I must press in order to illuminate the screen.
I walk into the kitchen and use the Nespresso machine (hell, it’s not even ‘real’ espresso by definition’), and I can’t even change the icon on the display. i.e. Your selectively chosen battleground is on personal computers.
What I’m getting to is this: The world functions on a delegation model of trust (someone makes something, I buy it, use it…). And ‘good enough’. “full trust” is an illusion. I don’t even trust my kidney to function at 100% efficiency to filter my blood in one single pass. But it’s good enough. I don’t fully trust the banks that I use, don’t fully trust the GPS in my car, don’t trust my kids, wife or anyone. …but everything is good enough up to a point to move forward in the timeline.
And so, similarly with Linux. I don’t trust myself to fully understand all the lines of code in the Linux kernel to say there’s no malicious intent embedded into a 20-year plan to have well hidden attack vector after 4 million commits (I don’t know the exact number…it’s just something I picked randomly). …and I don’t fully trust other code reviewers developers…but they’ll do…good enough.
Note: I’m not discounting your preference. I fully respect that. I’m just saying what I also see in everyday events when it comes to the notion of trust.
Think this really depends on what you mean by full visibility. If you mean everything…and I mean everything… Man, that’s not how I plan to spend my time on this earth.
IRS (US) collects a lot…and you (as an individual) don’t really get a say. i.e. This isn’t the battle ground you’ve chosen. But I’m saying, there are many many many battles to fight…and so, good on you that you’ve chosen the PC OS world as the one you want to fight in, maybe?
Yeah, this is getting weird. It’s not necessarily about things being customizable.
My Espresso machine isn’t customizable, but it does precisely what I want, and nothing more. It’s not remotely controlled by Breville, and it doesn’t spend time and electricity trying to push other Breville products on me. It’s fine.
My wireless HP printer, on the other hand, nags me constantly about using “genuine HP” ink cartridges, and will (by default) even use paper and ink to randomly print out ads. That’s horrible.
It’s like the more we buy, the more platform we give them to sell us more crap. Seriously, I just want to use what I buy…and not a back channel for them to send me crap. Right?
So yeah, to me, that’s where the issue is: Using my resources (time, electricity, processing power) for their benefits, while masquerading as for our personalization.
Think that’s what we can all agree on, Linux or Windows…or any embedded systems.
I guess I missed a few keywords. “Their attempt to” using my resources… (successfully or otherwise). (Time, in the sense it would require me to read / parse / glance through to even act on to determine to ignore)
@Second_Coming I always appreciate a little philosophy but it sounds like you’re saying, because we can never control anything fully, it’s usually not worth trying to control it at all.
I’m familiar with zones of trust (and collecting data on the public). Former life I was a data security officer for your he federal government. And you’re right, I don’t generally bother digging into my own traffic logs.
But there is a fundamental difference between a group of people motivated solely by how they can best extract money from you, and a group of people who have shared their solutions to problems without any profit motive.
I trust the Linux movement to be more aligned with my beliefs. Linux falls better within my personal threat model of which actors are looking to leverage my data against my best interest. Linux drives me to feel responsibility for my own data and practices, which I think is important. I honestly believe my active support of Linux, even just as a loud mouthed user, is in the same vein as my annual donations to the EFF. I do agree that for many use cases, Win11 is a better choice, including when I recommend devices for others. But I likely will never support windows as my first choice, simply because my ideal world is an anarcho-syndicalist one based on mutual aid, and not a capitalist one.
I’m with ya, too - I’m really liking Windows - still - on the frame.work… I fought it for a long time, and created a VERY useable and solid Arch Linux install - but ATM I’m watching a video using Win+K, casting to my Samsung TV… doesn’t work in nix. I’m planning on creating a new Linux install on my user-port USB drive, using LUKS encryption and having that available at any time… since my last Arch setup was on a 1TB drive, its gonna be a bit hard to widdle it down to 256GB, but thats my plan…
I wish I knew the answer to that question - I 100% planned on, and didn’t have any backup plan for, running Linux on the Frame.work - like every other [mostly] piece of hardware on my network… I don’t know why suspend, battery life, the intel video chip and more [newer, maybe?] hardware doesn’t play as nicely with Linux; but it doesn’t. I assume you have Linux loaded on your Frame… suspend. You’ll lose 15% battery [or more] per hour; as much as I dislike it, Windows performs much better. On Thinkpads [T460 and below, and I’d assume on the current T480 too - but I can’t say 100…] all these features DO perform correctly.
Not saying Linux on the Frame.work is bad, or undoable - I just didso for almost a year… just saying that after finally giving in and saying ‘why not try Win 11…’ that I’m very impressed with performance and features that it offers. Do I wish that *nix performed AS WELL on this newer hardware? Yup - but is Windows an option that is working for me ATM? Yup… Most of my *nix services, systems and machines are VMs and are fully available on this Win11 desktop - so I’m just diggin it…
For example, I have Grand Theft Auto 5 simply installed on my Windows install and it plays great on the Frame.work - but man, why the heck won’t Rockstar Games allow you to use a Nintendo Switch Pro controller!!! XBOX only. But, its really nice to be able to just install a game and get good performance out of it…
Ok, lets talk about some things that suck - I’ve only had this Win11 installation for a couple weeks, and I’m already seeing left over files from installed and then uninstalled applications, registry entries that aren’t cleaned up - and stupid software no matter how hard [Using choco, winget, cygwin to install and run the system] I try. I’m certain that a Windows installation will become bloated and… over run with extra registry entries, settings and leftovers from programs that should be GONE. Trying to use a simple tool, like rsync, with a Windows machine from a Linux machine is… gross. The paths get so convoluted because you get like /drive/c/windows/whatever - MacOS w/ Linux is much easier. At any rate, I’m NOT a Windows guy… but am impressed on this computer.
With s2idle, I’m seeing 0.3W now, which should give me about 50Wh/0.3W=166h > 6 days idle time with the best expansion card layout (which would be all USB-C). With my normal setup (USB-A + HDMI) this increases to about 1W, so about 3 days.
Normal “idle” power usage (machine on, but not using it) is about 6W with the screen on and 2-3W when the screen is blacked-out. Doing something like watching a video on youtube (no hardware accelleration yet :-() bumps this into 10-12W range. Compiling with lots of parallel threads really gets the fan going; I haven’t tried that on battery.
This is with Fedora + TLP. Only “fiddling” is adding the kernel command parameters.
In my case, my scenario is that I need a linux laptop, so I hoped the hardware of Framework is suitable for that. Therefore, I’m interested in knowing if there is other hardware that is considerably more suitable for the purpose of running linux on it. The numbers I’m seeing now are certainly not worse than for Dell XPS Developer edition, so I’m pretty happy, but I’m totally open to being less happy if I see convincing numbers.
If NIST is ok with running Windows…I think I’m ok with that too. Yes, editions of Windows matters…and various other controls working together.
This point might be a bit naïve, but what negative impacts has Microsoft imposed on me by such collection (whatever that maybe)? GDPR helps a bit too. And there are things you can turn off. Sure, I much rather some of those ‘invading’ features are off by default.
Anyway, I guess what I’m saying is: If it doesn’t hurt me, then does it matter if someone else is getting rich from having my turd? (Note: I’m not saying one should be ignorance)
No. I’m saying you’ve picked your battleground. Everyone has something they want to put their time into…privacy, human rights, animal welfare…etc. You’ve picked yours to be in the OS selection.
…and everyone has different level of tolerance when it comes to data collection. I’m ok with Windows and Linux. Android, well, that’s a whole different level.
Think there’s a distinction here:
a group of people motivated solely by how they can best extract money from you; vs
(They get “money” from you)
a group of people motivated solely by how they can best extract money from information you created / caused into existence.
(They get “money” from information that came from your interactions. Money isn’t from you)
Nothing new with number 1 (That’s pretty much every establishment, business…etc). Everyone wants someone else’s money.
Nothing new with number 2 either…except it’s digital information. In the non-digital days…this was your soda can, your used wine bottles, your milk bottles.
Granted, there are situations where their data collection could be negative to us: e.g. Healthcare, insurance. But it’s not the collection itself, it’s the usage and execution of the data. Data collection prevention alone, IMO, isn’t the problem. The problem goes back to number 1…everyone trying to get money from you one way or another. Which goes back to your point…which brings me to: Choosing an OS that can’t / doesn’t collect data doesn’t solve issue 1. Someone is always out there, trying to come up with a scheme to move money from your pocket to their pocket. (Changing OS selection doesn’t change this behaviour / attempt).
If society comes up with a way to make the collected data has no value…now that would be something. That’s the battle worth fighting for. Go higher up the chain… Like, arresting street level drug deals (e.g. OS per installation) doesn’t do anything.
Have to agree with Nils I see closer to 1% per hour during suspend with draining expansion cards (and nvme.noacpi=1) F36, not ideal but OK. If I’m reading a webpage/document basically not interacting on low brightness I will see usage fall to ~2-3W, general web browsing is between 5-8W. What is the Windows power usage like? Asking for a friend
Check out ds4windows, it allows you to use PS3/4/5, Switch Joycon/Pro controllers and emulated them as Xbox (360?) controllers. I use it wireless with my PS4 controller, the best bit that touchpad can be used as a intput device on the desktop-it isn’t perfect hehe.
Those are great numbers - and I think my point got missed somewhere [not saying by you…] - I think the Frame.work is a GREAT Linux laptop; period… I won’t go back over what I’ve already said - except to say that I am impressed w/ how Windows performs on it…
However, it sounds like you have a *nix setup that is performing great - and that should be it. Good stuff. I’m a Linux user, through and through.
Also, as time goes by I’m seeing Windows work some it its dirty magic… Even when using chocolatey [a Windows ‘package manager’] Win leaves TONS of data behind after ‘uninstalling’ an application. Its not nix, and… we’ll see what I think in a month.
Thanks for that info - and again, st0ked that yer satisfied w/ the frame on nix. I do roll back to one of my points… I think most of us Linux folks haven’t even tried Windows on the Frame.work - and that was what this post was supposed to be about… a Linux user, who knows nothing about Windows, getting on w/ Windows and liking the experience.
I’ve been adding all sorts of [stupid] customizations to the OS, live wallpapers and other graphic-rich features - and the memory usage is CRAZY; but I’m like… why NOT use the compute thats available??? I’m kinda just attempting this new OS, to me, and seeing how I get on actually USING it as a programming, game-playing, video editing machine - and its handling everything I’m throwing at it.
Glad you and nils are happy w/ nix. Thats NOT what this thread was about… I, too, was mostly happy w/ my Arch Linux build on the frame - I still have my backup and might go back. But I am enjoying this OS while I use it… and we’ll see where I end up in a month.
Do you got an extra m.2? Throw Windows on it and play… actually try it out and you’ll see that you can add power-user, terminal, features - and the WSL is badass… that was the point.
Now THIS is a reply that I can agree with and think about. While I’ve decided to try out this non-nix OS, I do understand that I have to be careful w/ MS. I didn’t install with a MS account, and have done some things to mitigate what MS is able to grab - but I’m aware, and learning, about what I can’t control with Win11.
YOU are right that *nix is a better choice for controlling your data. Thanks for posting this reply.
I did - and it looks like a winner IMO. Sure, yer not gonna be [easily] replacing the battery like our beloved, but it’s a solid machine in one flavor that can be upgraded enough to be a beast dev machine.
Hopefully the hardware is Linux super friendly - I can’t wait for the reviews after ppl use them for a few months.
Same here. Would be awesome to hear what it’s like after having it field tested.
LVFS from the get go, rather than an afterthought, is definitely the right first step. Would be interesting to see if HP will have this RTC battery issue or not…my bet is not. They have the experience of making good, and bad…laptops. If anything, HP knows exactly what they’re doing with each product, nothing is accidental, and that includes them making bad laptops…and the good ones. Meaning, let’s see where HP is positioning this product on its product spectrum.
Apologies if you felt I was missing the point of your thread. I simply wanted to echo Nils comment regarding battery drain. I had no agenda, sorry if it came across that way.
I dual boot W10 with Fedora so have some experience of the other side
Not at all, dude - text sometimes comes off unintendedly w/o audible expression - no issue taken… while I did enjoy knowing that Windows was a capable OS, and I really liked learning a bit about the most current version - and the WSL2/Linux baked in - I’ve since went back to *nix. I run Arch, because I can build the exact system that I prefer… I choose to run it with a GNOME base and both Linux and Linux-LTS installed, as there are some bugs w/ the newest Linux kernel. [Such as VirtualBox having issues w/o Linux-LTS running…]
For me, while gaming has gotten a lot better on Linux, that’s been my main sore point (and PC VR, which still basically requires Windows). I used to dual boot, but that was always a huge chore (eg, I’d just end up not gaming since I’d need to do so much workspace cleanup/bringup, even on a second drive, and Windows or BIOS updates would too often do bad things to my EFI or NVRAM and I’d have to go back and fiddle). This was especially bad for VR development, where I basically just had to use a dedicated Windows system. So a few years ago, I bit the bullet and ground my way to a working VFIO-passthrough KVM setup that I’ve been using over the past few years, which has worked reasonably trouble free (over 3 years post setup, there’s been one tricky docker/network bridging issue, and maybe 2 QEMU updates that I’ve had to temporarily roll back that caused regressions).
This setup might change soon though, I’ve recently discovered how good Moonlight is (about 2-5ms latency local streaming), so I’ll probably just setup a dedicated gaming box in a closet. Along with Playnite to manage my libraries, this is literally a game changer and I’d highly recommend everyone give it a try (Sunshine is an alternative Gamestream host if you want to stream from Linux).
In the past I’ve switched through all the major platforms as my primary desktop computing environment, using Windows primarily (until XP), Mac (10.1-10.11), and Linux (from about 2015 on), obviously everyone should use whatever works best for them, and I keep a reasonably up-to-date Mac as well as a dedicated Windows machine around just in case, but for me, I have a few reasons for strongly preferring Linux these days:
As a professional and geek/enthusaist, I’ve spent the majority of my waking hours on computers for the past 20+ years. Whichever platform I’m using, I like to become a power user so customizing/optimizing my computing is a big deal, but it also does pay itself off in saved time/better experience (this might not be the case for most people, everyone’s calculus there will be pretty individual). Obviously this becomes a lot harder to do on multiple platforms (especially as there are constant updates breaking things), but also, it turns out that Linux simply gives you a lot more control over your environment. Better scripting for window manipulation/layouts, behaviors/decorators, notifications, app switching, idle/locking, keyboard remapping/macros (interception is amazing), and of course, what processes are running and who/what data your computer sends out.
While there’s a lot more initial setup, dotfiles means that all this is relatively portable. It’s much easier for me to swap and keep in sync all of my systems. Not much of a concern if you’re only using one primary client system, but even if you just use a laptop/desktop and upgrade relatively often, it’s still a big win IMO. It’s a bummer to spend a long time customizing your environment to what you like if its impossible to keep it up-to-date, or have it setup everywhere.
The trend I’ve seen for commercial operating systems (especially on the Mac side) is that they are getting more locked down and less flexible. Some of choosing Linux is for supporting the computing I want, but also to make sure that I’ll continue to have that moving forward as well. To me, Linux is a longer term investment that I’ll be keep doing what I want in the future. While I’m a pragmatist, as I’m getting older, more of my software choices are with an eye towards what will let me carry over utility, or even basic access/compatibility over the next 10, 20, or 50 years.
but it sounds like you’re saying, because we can never control anything fully, it’s usually not worth trying to control it at all.
But, its really nice to be able to just install a game and get good performance out of it…
