Pro - was the screen choice counter to Framework ideals?

Framework Laptop 13
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Genuinely interested in others opinions.

I waited for a ~13" small but powerfull ecologically positive system as my ultra travel laptop. Previously using a Zenbook flip 13. I still use this despite the screen crack. Similar options just don’t existing, meaning the second hand prices of now an old unit maintains a good price.

Finally something powerful and repairable from framework meeting my needs.

But- why a touchscreen, not a stylus compatible one! This is a key advantage. I do a lot of varied project work, so while i am 60% technical I also edit graphics from time to time on the go. A stylus is great.

So what is the positives of a non-stylus touchscreen? Is it really useful (enough to warrant the extra complexity, failure-points, and natural resources). Personally, I feel this provides little to no function (compared to a stylus compatible one), but at a big financial and environmental cost?

There is the 12" model for childlike screen prodding. Surely the 13" pro is for those wanting power from it?

Disappointed because- even the environmental side not-withstanding, this is the first laptop that meets my needs in 5 years. But the price, without stylus use means it now falls out of the value bracket. Stings harder as I am a public-facing environmental and circular economy worker in my career. I still cannot recommend, or highlight a single IT company for just the type of reasons.
Am i wrong thinking the touchscreen is essentially useless/very low value? is there actually a use for professionals having a touchscreen sans stylus?

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I regard it as the other way around. The 12 has an excellent stylus-compatible screen for sketching, handwriting, etc. The 13 Pro has a finger-prodding screen.

Not wrong exactly, it’s just subjective. If the 13 Pro got a stylus screen then it might as well go the whole hog and allow the screen to fold back. I’d have paid more for this - I have a Lenovo with a stylus and it is excellent. The 12 was probably too small and too low-power for me, and I think in the 13 Pro I got the right unit - the build quality is worth paying for. I don’t use the Pro touch-screen much, though it is occasionally handy when the touchpad driver needs a gentle reboot.

For me, I will keep the Lenovo going as long as I can (it is probably already 12 years old). If you want to sketch then either pick up the 12 (being aware of the base plate cracking problem) or get a second-hand sketching computer from eBay, such as a Lenovo. This second option contributes even less to landfill, since the computer has already been purchased once.

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@Squiggler
I don’t use the Pro touch-screen much,

The 12 has an excellent stylus-compatible screen for sketching, handwriting, etc

The 12 was probably too small and too low-power for me

12 (being aware of the base plate cracking problem)

TBH it sounds like you are countering me, but you supported my point?

The 12, yeah has stylus, but low power, tiny screen, less durable, bulky. IMHO more aimed at occasional use/children. This would have made more sense being touch only. These two are wrong way around?

Getting a ‘cheap’ system doesn’t cut it- I work while traveling, and stylus isn’t for notes and ‘doodling’, but design work (as much as I can on mobile power). I need the specs, and screen size. 13 is a sweet spot for someone frequently traveling across Europe, without being too big for carry-on baggage with everything else (often just one backpack).

But the main point
I still:-

  • fail to see the point of touchscreen, sans stylus use- especially given the increase in environmental impact of extra raw materials, when Framework claim to be environmental focus. on a ‘pro’ spec machine, what is that useful for?
  • Why have the extra cost and complexity for something, on a pro system that doesn’t really add any real significant function?

For me, I will keep the Lenovo going as long as I can (it is probably already 12 years old)

Same here with my ASUS Zenbook Flip 13. Which is very sad. It’s feeling speed issues when traveling and taken quite a few hits. Again why the 13 pro with metal was key also. I’m going to have to buy a donor machine, or two, to replace the excellent screen i’ve cracked.

I keep stuff going as long as possible, but it it really is past the point spec wise I should be upgrading. I held out for this, and severely disappointed- personally, and professionally on the environmental side.

Still feels like an own goal on both environmental, and cost increase without any function grounds. (yeah if track pad issues, but for temporary failures i’ll use a mouse).

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Have you spec’d out the ecological impact of a touchscreen vs non-touch? From my intuition, I think you’d find the impact of adding touch to be tiny.

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If I have to take a position, we are in disagreement, but nearly all of this is subjective. I think it is incorrect to position the FW 12 as a children’s device.

It’s great that you care about the environment, I do too. But it is not productive to hold out to the point of one’s own great suffering. If the current FW lineup don’t exactly suit you right now, that is OK - product development is insanely hard, and it has to judge what the bulk of the market wants.

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Ah, just encountered this related post; it’s worth linking:

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Thanks for linking in that. Interesting point, although I really don’t think framework has tried to force buying both. I;m still more on different technologies, I do suspect the wider bezel on the 12 helps integrate the stylus.

I still don’t see any purpose for any real significant use, for the touch sans stylus. Nor has anyone suggested so.

You may say from my pov, and yes that what initiated it. Even trying to consider other POV (which is why i asked here- i’m trying to see any specific purpose for touch sans stylus) I fail to 1. see significant purpose of none stylus touch, 2. in context of the pro spec, I even more fail to see its purpose.

it has to judge what the bulk of the market wants.

Absolutely. But my point is- I don’t see a market that wants it. I haven’t ever met anyone who really used touch sans stylus (previously worked in authority IT- 10,000’s of desktop/laptops from education, to architecture to admin). To include extra complexity- and chose to activly increase environmental resource use. For no good reason. For me, it feels like framework is slowly abandoning it’s own repair and environmental claims. Touch sans stylus has been something (in laptops) people go ‘oh cool’ when buying. Then never use.

Without finding proper genuine significant usage, as far as I can see, this is first step of framework creeping from environmentally positive, towards greenwashing, adding extra ‘features’ no one will use, but not the better more expensive & useful feature, but pump up the price anyway.

Remember, while yes my initial device ideals began this. I am thinking here as a environment industry worker, making decisions and recommendations both as a independent consultant, and to my government and authorities on which companies to include in national buyin frameworks. The point it ended up as comments here, it thinking from that POV of technical reasoning, and use. Touch still seems ok for public display, info screens, terminals. For young children even. But I struggle to see any real use in pro-level laptops.

Does anyone any ideas of significant enough reason to include this?

While yes, I would have preferred stylus in the pro. Next I would have thought, from market, and use seen in real world, a pro without any touch at all, would have been better than adding cost and environmental cost of adding touch sans stylus.

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In context: the touch sans stylus, I am asserting especially for the pro specs and its target market is a pointless waste. Who really is going to find significant advantage on the pro laptop, without a stylus?

So its the ecological cost of touch sans stylus vs Nothing. not vs stylus screen.

While a stylus screen adds a large amount of utilization. The touch sans stylus, I suggest, is only of significant use, for public interactive devices, ipads, and perhaps models aimed towards young children (and have yet to have anyone in years, or here, suggest a real significant use on laptop especially given the target of the pro model) .

So ecologically, it would not be an assessment of useful touch vr useful touch+stylus impact. But:
Useless touch vs no touch at all impact. Because it has little to no use.
Meanwhile:
At least touch+stylus would add significant utility for the user.

I’d love to see a wide ranging use for the touch alone? I’d happily shut up and say ‘oh yeah’. But I fail to see it on a laptop device aimed squarely at power/pro/whatever users. But without that i’m left worrying I can no longer, or very soon can’t justify framwork to my clients in the same way iI once could (environmental).

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In summary, touch users (stylus or not) are a minority from a business case for a small developing company.

However, they are much more vocal about their dissatisfaction with products that meet their wants.

Expecting a Goldilocks product while overlooking the other accomplishments of a product is not being as appreciative for what IS available today.

Nobody is stopping anyone from investing the time and resources for the “ideal” product. Look at what some people have done in the Creators forum.

Make a suggestion through official channels and if enough interest is logged and there is a real business case for making the product, Framework or another company will embark on it.

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More like Build-A-Bear, let me pick the monitor. Maybe a third-party vendor could start making more; I mean, I’m not going to, but I like the idea of just disabling the touchscreen for now. I guess in some cases it’s better to have something and be able to turn it off than not. I love the 12 and stylist, the touch screen not so much. If we could disable touch but keep the pen working that would be great?

A quick search for professional uses of a touch screen on a laptop, does make me wonder how I could get a different screen? :wink:

The more open-source hardware we evolve, the more we could have it the way we want it.

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I like this idea in general. We’ve had a lot of bother on the forum with the 12’s case material being prone to cracking, and I sympathise with both sides: I think FW are earnestly trying to fix the design, and I understand why owners are frustrated.

If FW don’t want to make an aluminium case panel, it feels like a ripe opportunity for a third-party to do it, especially since all the measurements and CAD designs are made freely available.

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I’m about to have a spare motherboard. Just think of how many people are building “cyberdecks” with these!

I’ve been using it for storage, but I originally bought an old Samsonite briefcase from a thrift store to hollow out for just this case, which brings us to an external monitors—also an option with laptops. From a quick search, I see we can do pen support with an external flat screen.

I personally for now have settled on the idea of having the 12 for the pen support (as I do :hugs: ) and the 13 Pro or 16, for—well, I don’t really don’t think I’ll use the touchscreen if I have to have it, but we’ll see?

Edit/Add: Unless this new Core upgrade—and whatever comes next—keeps things running well enough?

More/Lol: A company could outsell everyone else in the long run if I could pass my laptop down to my kids and they could do the same. Does anyone else remember when Taco Bell wins the franchise wars in Demolition Man? This would be next-level: a Framework Titanium version with teak inlays and yada-yada. :victory_hand:

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