Some thought about Dave2D video about Framework (16) performance vs price

I think the problem is a Dave2D problem. I am happy to pay more for a repairable and upgradable laptop than one where everything is sodered on. I plan to use my FW16 indefinitely, although I expect that the FQ and AMD collab will result in new models for each new AMD advantage generation.


Quoted for Truth!


Dave2D obviously did not have the experience I had.

For my first personal laptop back in 2014 I saved up to buy the best I could - an MSI GS30 Shadow. It was extremely powerful (HS CPU) for its day and had the best integrated graphics available at the time, Intel Iris Xe “Crystal Well”. I paid $2000 CAD for it.

Stuffing such a powerful CPU in such a thin and small chassis meant lots of heat and very poor battery life. It struggled to get 2 hours of battery life just doing basic tasks.

Yes, it was powerful. But time and progress march on and by 2021 it was no longer class leading. That’s to be expected, of course. But my options by that time were to just outright replace it. Instead I got a Framework 13 i7-1165G7, for just slightly less, in 2021 dollars. It completely blew my old one out of the water even though it wasn’t an HS CPU, it operated much cooler and had much better battery life. Best of all, in 2022 I was able to upgrade it to an i7-1260P for a large increase in performance. I couldn’t have done that with my old laptop. I could update it further now, to 13th gen (small increase in performance from what I’ve seen) or to AMD (maybe bigger increase in performance). Or I could wait. Or I could upgrade to a previous gen for less, later. It’s up to me.

Try that with any other laptop, without replacing it outright.

Dave2D missed the point.


David is right about this for the most part.

2000 Dollar for a gaming notebook is quite a lot, and I think repairability and upgradeability is a feature, although it takes some speculation and generous assumption, to make this really sound like a financial benefit.

I would say, the 16 inch is meant to catapult the company. I am sure they simply make a bigger cut on this one, and I would be fine with that on its own.

Ultimately, I am ready to pay almost double the price for a laptop, because I like the concept.

Although there are a few issues who might seem small on their own, they are really breaking the camel’s back for me personally, when they to hand over so much for a device.

I am sure this is subjective, but the narrow arrow keys, a GPU that is limited to 8 GB VRAM, still no Coreboot, and bypass charging that requires a reboot, are just not enough.

For me, at least.

I hope you all buy it, and I get later a device, that I am happy with. Probably at around 2035.

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Depends on your viewpoint. For those used to pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap and throw them away in 3 years consumer laptops, sure. Dave missed the point.

That’s a bit harsh. There’s been a lot of engineering that’s gone into the FW16. The expansion bay, reconfigurable hotswap input devices, etc that havn’t been done before. That engineering time, prototyping and testing doesn’t come cheap. The devices that attach to them will be initially be more expensive to manufacture compared to an off the shelf component as fitted to the gaming laptops in your local electronics shop.

TL;DR To say Framework are profiteering is disingenuous.

Show me a keyboard layout and I’ll show you someone who complains about it. At least with FW16 you can change the keyboard, and the specs are published so any other company can choose to make whatever input device they desire to fit. The default options are fine for most people.

GPU is just an initial offering. Complaining that an entire ecosystem of options isn’t launching is unrealistic. Let them get the initial machine in production first, eh?

Same for Coreboot. It’s an upgradable laptop, maybe they can add it for later revision boards. Given they’re partnered with AMD for the initial version, it wasn’t likely given the tinfoil hat wearing gamer who wants a repairable laptop is a niche within a niche within a niche.


My current laptop costed me €200. It’s a refurbished Elitebook, and besides gaming, is there absolutely no reason for me to upgrade.

If I do, I could upgrade to some other refurbished 10th gen Intel for like €400.
No matter how you twist and turn this, a Framework will always be more expansive for me, and not even more resourceful, because a used device is always less stress for the environment.

Could be. Framework surely did something new on this, and as a software developer myself, can I see how this is more effort. Although I fail to see, how this is effort that costs a lot of money, and maybe that’s just me.

To say they are profiteering is saying they are working under capitalism.
Obviously they are profiteering, I don’t know how this is disingenuous.

Super, you can change the keyboard, and there is no alternative available.
Smaller companies, like Slimbook and NovaCustom, allow you completely customized keyboard layouts. Nothing like that here. No alternative layout, and no custom fonts, icons, or anything.

Nada. And obviously no full sized arrows. As said, that’s just a no no for me, when I pay €2000 for a laptop. And I have met countless people, alone here on the forum, who say the same.

Particularly since they already had at least full sized left and right, does this look like a hit in the face, and a significant step back.

It is outdated at release.

Did you look into the forum? People are screaming for Coreboot since years.
Its an absolutely critical part for a lot of people, and that for very technical reasons.

Here: Does framework plan to move to CoreBoot or like open source Bios?
And here: Coreboot on Framework Laptop 16?
And here: [RESPONDED] Coreboot on the Framework Laptop
And here: Do I get a choice of an american megatrends or coreboot UEFI
Oh, and here: Coreboot and Intel ME
And one more: Intel Boot Guard & Coreboot

And nothing to say about the fact, that they have already released a Coreboot Laptop, in the form of the Chromebook, that just comes with its own drawbacks.

They can. System76 has done the work for them. They don’t want to do it.

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You’re preaching to the choir. I’m typing this on a £200 refurbished ThinkPad T480. Eagerly anticipating the FW16 though.

You work for free, and don’t take a wage?

Your original posts infers that FW are making excessive profit. Don’t try and move the goalposts after you’ve kicked the ball. :joy:

They’ve got to launch it at some point, delaying it for a year so they can make 32 different keyboard layouts for all the niches isn’t going to happen.

It’s open source. Go make your own keyboard, or find some friends with a similar interest and work together. Isn’t that the open source way?

And I work with a building full of people who can’t comprehend why anyone would use a TrackPoint. Doesn’t make them right!

Now you’re just ranting. :wink:

Nonsense. It’s 8 months old. And before you even try it the VRAM argument doesn’t wash with me. I’ve seen no signs of issues on an 8GB RTX 3070 even at 3440x1440 despite reddit telling me the card would explode and take out my firstborn. Better programming is the solution, not installing even more VRAM.

The noisy Tinfoil hat minority can carry on buying decade old ThinkPads or a new System76 laptop. That’s their freedom of choice. The number of pre-orders for the FW16 says it’s not an issue.

To sum up and TL;DR - modern product development iterates and continually improves. Expecting the holy grail of every personal wishlist feature you can imagine in a laptop was … optimistic. But at least the potential to customise it is there. Unlike your €200 old HP.


I think this is the key right here. There’s just no reason for you to spend this kind of money, or any money, really! And that’s fine! At this price, it’s absolutely not for everyone, and it’s certainly not for someone who doesn’t need a new laptop.

Same reason I wouldn’t spend $50,000 on an SUV. My car is fine, and that size just doesn’t make sense for me. It makes sense for others, though, and sure, if it were $10,000 and got 50mpg and were 180" long and everything else I wanted, sure then I’d be interested! I’m not making YouTube videos about why they aren’t what I want, though.


No. I said its fine. They can earn their share, and why not. I never said anything against that.

I think they will finally make any profit.

These companies are smaller than Framework, with less money behind. Its not difficult. Its not hard. They decide, they dont care. That’s all.

No. The open source way is, that I can do these things. Read the licenses.

No, you don’t get the point.

Some people would only buy a laptop with a proper track point.
I pay 2000€ only for a laptop, that is a complete upgrade, and not a partial downgrade to my current setup. The 16 is a partial downgrade in several aspects.

Why would I pay for that?

No, thats exactly how I feel.

Doesnt help you with VR. And does not help you with the fact, that modern consoles come with more VRAM, so the ports will pretty much require that. I dont buy a laptop today, that is on the brink of being outdated. And there is the thing called benchmarks.

The first 8GB card was released 2015. So on top of 2k, it costs me another 400 to 600 in 2 years, if I still want to game on this thing. And VR today is also significantly limited.

Thats just my use case, and my preferences.

I don’t use such a device.

To me, it’s not only about security, but about the technical improvements that a modern replacement for UEFI brings with it. It promotes itself as different, Linux friendly, open source tooting, freedom loving and what not.

That is absolutely in line with core boot, and they don’t care about it.

People gaslight instead, and say it’s not important. We are at that point, where people make excuses, instead of improving the devices.

As said, Framework is a still born. Dead and another soulless company, before it even took off. Good bye

You’re entitled to your opinion. But it’s only that. An opinion.

11 batches of pre-orders indicates otherwise.



If you feel like that, why are you even here? Just to antagonize others?


Time to remind everyone of the Community Guidelines.

We’ll start issuing warnings and deleting posts if this continues, so let’s keep debate centered on the video.


I am not talking about Framework going bankrupt financially.

I think they will be very successful, at least within the niche they target.

They just loose people, who believed into them for years.
And that’s always a sign of a cooperation loosing their soul.
They are absolutely on that way, IMHO.

I see now, that they don’t care, and I agree with David, that their value proposition is just not there, that is all.

They could have improved in more ways than just via being upgradable.
And they decided, that’s not worth it.

The ‘tinfoil hat minority’ that you look down upon, is exactly the type of group, that usually invests themselves a lot into a project like this.

I tell you that they don’t feel heard, or seen.
And you tell me, that you don’t want to hear or see them.

And that’s the issue.

Hey now! A decade-old Thinkpad can still get a kid through college or connect someone to services they need or people they love for less than anything you can buy new, so at a performance vs price perspective, for some people, you can’t beat a T420!


Please re-read the guidelines post. We welcome differing opinions, but this thread is getting toxic and will be removed if it continues.


I happen to think decade old Thinkpads are awesome myself. Great notebooks! :slight_smile:


Whether you are talking about a $300 used laptop, a $269 Best Buy special, a $2,500 Framework 16, or a $4,000 MacBook Pro kitted out with some of their crazy SSD and RAM options, no laptop will represent a good value proposition to every user. No computer can be everything to everyone.


You further prove my point.
There is nothing toxic in what I write, and I am not hurting the guidelines.
You just don’t want to read, how I feel about things.
As said: Ignorance is more important to some of you, than listening.
As said, that’s why I think this path is not a good one.

That is my opinion.

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Might be better if everyone leaves this thread alone.


Alright. Everyone’s had their say, but this thread has not improved. Closing.