The battery failures and the lack of consistency & quality of the BIOS updates have me strongly considering doing an immediate return & refund of my order once it arrives.
What I’d like from Framework is data about the failure rate of the 61Wh battery. How many have been sold, how many have been warranty-claimed & how many of those claims have been for swelling battery. Compared with similar data for the 55Wh battery, I think this would be illuminating. I acknowledge that in the absence of similar data from competitors we can’t tell if Framework is doing worse than others, but we can atleast be informed about the state of Framework’s battery failure rate.
For my own safety I want to clearly understand
Given the same charging conditions are ALL the 61Wh batteries susceptible to this issue? Or a subset of them due to faulty components in the battery.
Is the issue brought on due to a software fault in the BIOS/EC in how it handles charging? In the BIOS update thread someone mentions battery flip-flopping at 100% charge. Or is it a combination of the lack of battery-saver features we take for granted from other laptop manufacturers along with low quality battery components?
When can we expect the BIOS update that fixes the battery saver feature? Given the situation with the 61Wh battery & Framework’s own root cause analysis, this battery saver feature seems like an essential safety feature and having it in a broken state seems borderline reckless.
I understand that we don’t hear from the people happily using the 61Wh battery without issue … but the amount of users all reporting the same thing is concerning. I’ve owned many laptops and have never had a manufacturer tell me I need to baby the battery if I don’t want it to become a fire hazard (as opposed to simply prolonging the useable lifespan).
I believe in the best intentions on this but so far the execution has shaken my confidence.
I can’t address this directly, as I have the FW16 which doesn’t seem to have this problem (and also limit the charge to a max of 80%). I will note though that Framework has extended the warranty on the 61W battery by an additional year, so if you do run into this problem, you should be covered.
I can also point out that Framework isn’t the only manufacturer to run into this. I had a MacBook Pro a few years ago that did the same thing, a little over a year after I bought it, and greedy and abusive Apple insisted that it was my fault and I had to pay for a battery replacement, nevermind the fact that there was no setting at the time that could have made any difference (I don’t think they’ve added one since, either). Framework’s response is far better, particularly as you can replace the battery easily yourself. Apple forces you to take it to them, and pay their abusive repair rates.
In general, there are only users here, so we don’t have any failure rate info to give you.
The 61W battery is “Coming soon” in the store, so my guess is that they might have supply problems related to it. Possibly due to the problems reported about it, (swelling etc.)
The recurrence of people reporting this same issue with Framework does concern me though. And the timespans for swelling people are reporting are pretty short for a modern battery IMO.
Like if we could point to a stat and say “well this has only occurred to this miniscule percentage of users of the 61Wh battery” that would be some reassurance. Anyone could still be in that tiny percentage but it would assuage the worry that there could be something in the quality of the hardware components of the battery / software that handles charging that is causing this to happen with regularity.
I’m on-board to give a certain amount of leeway as it’s still a relatively new company innovating i. the space. So they may face issues others won’t.
I just want to have some confidence that what I’m getting is a laptop that can be repaired, but not one that requires more repairs than other contemporary laptops.
The ask for failure rates was more from Framework staff.
I think generally making that type of data available for all components would align with their mission. But I understand there may be business reasons not to.
The very fact that they offered an extended warranty on the 61Wh battery makes me wonder if there is a known, across-the-board issue with that part. It’s nice they did do that but if it’s because the entire inventory is faulty, something in the charging code was ruining batteries or it uses low-quality components … that’s not awesome.
Yeah you can replace it, it’s serviceable, but you have to notice it before you end up in a dangerous fire. Like there’s an added importance to getting this right over say a faulty touchpad due to the severity of the possible outcomes with a battery. Happily the cases I’ve seen reported the chassis seems to bulge pretty noticeably.
Similar to my statement above I don’t think the fact of the laptop being more serviceable than other laptops should be used as an excuse for it requiring more servicing than other laptops. (Whether it does or not is unclear)
Again, I bought one. I hope to keep it & be completely satisfied. I believe in the mission behind the company. I think honest feedback and assessment of the state of things is important. And more data would help that.
I suppose it’s possible that Framework would release failure rates, but I kinda doubt it. It’s pretty rare that companies release failure rate stats like that.
Pretty much any lithium battery is susceptible to failing and/or swelling if left at a high state of charge for a long time. My guess is that the newer, higher voltage cells such as what are used in the 61 watt hour battery are simply going to be more susceptible to it, even if there isn’t technically a defect or “issue” with them. That could be why there haven’t been as many reports of this happening with the 55Wh battery, and maybe why FW implemented the battery charge behavior in the BIOS and extended the warranty.
This is just one data point, but I’ve had my charge limit set at 80% in the BIOS since I got my FW 13 with the 61Wh battery, and it’s fine, so far (knock on wood). I always figured that if I was going to travel or something and needed more battery life than the 80% would get me, I’d temporarily turn off the limit and let it charge to 100%. I haven’t needed to yet, lol.
I would also say that the buggy battery management system (BMS), which I mentioned on multiple topics, contributes to the failure rate. I would like to know the UNSEAL code for the BQ40Z50R3 BMS so the user could troubleshoot it themselves.
As I understand it, when the battery swells, it’s to prevent a fire. But I’m not an engineer, so take that with a grain of salt.
When it happened on my MacBook Pro, it was VERY noticeable – the trackpad became impossible to click by pressing on it, and the entire front of the MacBook started bulging upward. From what I’ve seen in other messages here, something similar happens on FW13s with the same problem, so I don’t think that’s an issue.
I think you’re right. I’m overestimating the likelihood of spontaneous fire without a puncture.
I was being hyperbolic. Sorry for that, that doesn’t help us in having a reasonable and informed discussion.
Reading all these “my battery swelled up after less than a year” posts here & on Framework subreddit gave me a some serious doubts about my order and I was pretty riled up about the topic.
Having read about battery swelling a bit more I’m less worried about it spontaneously burning my house down.
I do still think that batteries swelling this quickly remains a concern though & indicative of an underlying problem that I’d like to have a better understanding of as a soon-to-be owner of a Framework.
If Framework’s mission is partly to reduce e-waste but we have to replace batteries 2x, 3x, 4x, … more frequently than other laptop manufacturers that isn’t good
I disagree, battery swelling is caused by gas generation due toexcessive wear, improper use or defective cells, AND the lack of mechanical restraint. Batteries with hard casing don’t swell and they last significantly longer than pouch cells. Swelling causes delamination which is a form of mechanical damage, this adds degradation on top of normal wear and tear. Quality cylindrical cells always come with a safety valve. Gas generated by normal wear is contained and the battery won’t swell. Excessive gas generated by improper use or unit failure triggers the safety valve which vents the gas and mechanically disconnects the electrode, which prevents explosion. Many 18650/21700/26650 cells are rated to be charged to +or-12V safely, the only consequence of doing so is a dead cell.
What’s common doesn’t mean thats right. It’s a wrong trend for digital devices to use LCO li-ion in a soft, easily deformed pouch format, in pursuit of peak single discharge performance at the cost of longevity and safety. It should be NMC or NCA chemistry with cylindrical cells or other hard cases cell format with safety vent.
I abused some batteries in the past. I attempted to charge a cylindrical cell to 12V and the cell got warm at 5-ish volt then a recognizable ping is heard then the battery went 0V and infinite resistance, no visible deformation. I did the same to pouch cells, they got hot (70~120°C) when overcharged to 5.5V and swelled to twice the volume then black smoke poured out and they went to 280°C and still above 200°C after several minutes of cool down.
I think the relationship between swelling and fire/explosion is misunderstood. In my opinion, the most common cause of swelling is also the most common cause of fire. If a circuit failure causing the battery to short, the battery may swell or catch fire or both. If the charger or battery management is buggy and the battery is overcharged, it may swell or catch fire or both. If the battery is overheated or used in a very hot environment for a long time, it may swell but not catch fire as the temperature is still far from thermal runaway. if the battery is put in a very very hot place such as besides fire, it will swell then burst into flames.
These instances may lead to “swelling lead to explosion/fire” conclusion, which is sometimes accurate. More often than not, it’s “the reason that caused battery swelling is also the reason of battery fire”.
I list three possible result of puncturing a swollen cell:
Someone punctures the cell with a screwdriver just for the heck of it, the battery explodes due to the screwdriver shorting the anode and cathode. In this case the danger is not related to swelling at all.
The excessive swelling contacts adjacent component of the device, and if the deformation of the component leads to a short circuit and the deformation of the cell leaks gas, the heat from the short circuit ignites the gas, causing a fire or an explosion.
The excessive swelling breached the plastic “casing” outer layer, causing a gas leak. Oxygen from the atmosphere oxides the chemicals within the cell, inactivating the cells and the voltage drops to zero within days.
I think the swollen battery is dangerous typically means one of the two things.
Something wrong within the battery, or a rare case, the digital device, is causing excessive degradation of the battery, the same reason also increase the possibility of fire.
The swollen battery can deform other components that could increase the chance of electrical failure, some of them can lead to fire.
My assertion was from something that I’d once seen from an engineer, and which I can’t find now. It referred to the design purpose, not the cause of the problem. And please include the entire quote next time, my disclaimers are important to the message.
That statement was referring to pgrohelO’s concern that you have to notice that the battery has started swelling, not that a swelling battery doesn’t matter.