Viability of an ML 1220 rechargable battery for RTC | CMOS (11th gen)

@d_p - it’s a drag that you are having this problem. As stated previously, I am lucky that I am not. One of my framework laptops sits unplugged for weeks, and has powered on when I have gone to use it. I wonder if it is possible that tolerances make some setups more or less susceptible. I suppose matters could get worse were you to swap the board, but they could get better as well. That goes for @Jason_Dagless as well If I were in that situation and wanted to keep the machine I’d try a board swap.

As for design flaws, this one is a real bummer when it flares up. Hopefully Framework can resolve or at least greatly reduce the frequency or likelihood of the issue. We’ll see. Here’s a few design flaws that I have encountered in my time:

Macbook 12" butterfly keyboard - design flaw. Replaced under warranty, absolutely will fail again. The machine is usable when the switches fail but the experience is poor.

Macbook Pro 2011 (ish?) - GPU failed. Another design flaw. Board replaced under warranty. Failed again. Tough luck. Now running linux with GPU disabled.

Google Pixelbook. Keyboard partially failed, some keys simply would not work. I had to tweet at them to get a response. If my memory is correct its replacement failed as well, I believe it would not charge. Again, I had to tweet at them to get any sort of engagement (and I don’t use twitter, so this was just for that). The third one worked ok back when I was using it.

VW Diesel. Bought back (wound up on the “good?” side of this one with a healthy buyback).

Second VW diesel, post-fix. Car goes into countdown to no start mode under certain conditions (long high speed trips in near or subzero weather). When this happens if the counter goes to zero the car will continue to run but will not start if stopped. VW won’t buy back the car, and seems unable to or uninterested in fixing it. I happen to like the car (why, who knows. I’m probably just an idiot) so I paid for and applied an aftermarket tune that supposedly will avoid the issue (which is around the emissions system and DEF, which is working properly but not being sensed properly, nothing related to the running of the engine).

Chevy manual diesel. Clutch failed and was worked on three separate times, until the dealer finally pulled the transmission and replaced the slave cylinder. Another design flaw. Each time it failed I was far from home. Once at the start of a vacation, many hundreds of miles from home. The car was towed, we got a rental car which the dealer said that they would but never did reimburse, a repair was made, we picked it up on our way home and made it back. Some weeks later we were on another road trip and it failed on the way home, about 50 miles from home. I was able to shift based on speed and rpm, with no clutch, and limped it home. Had it towed to my local dealer, another repair was made, and it worked for a while longer. The final time, I was at a sports event, this time maybe 70 miles from home, and it again failed. Fortunately most of the drive was highway so I got it into high gear and only had to shift a few times at the end of the trip, again shifting without the clutch. This time they finally pulled the whole transmission and replaced the slave cylinder. Since then, fingers crossed, it has been ok. Apparently in Europe there was a recall for vehicles with these transmissions, Here, not so much.

Another car one. Some years ago I bought a car, and shied away from the prior model as there was a known issue that could cause an expensive engine rebuild every N years to make an O2 sensor work (and pass inspection). The newer model that I settled on didn’t have this problem. What it did have, which I did not know, was a rear main seal that could fail, and when it did, potentially blow the engine, requiring a rebuild or a new engine. Sounds like another design flaw. Were the cars recalled? Nope.

I bought a high end programmable coffee maker. Eventually it started having issues. When I called the company, the response was that they did not repair them and there was nothing to be done. So I replaced it with a different make and model, on my own dime.

My stereo receiver died due to a failure in one of its modules, Again, a known issue and a design flaw, but there was no recourse, and the part couldn’t be replaced.

I’ve gone on for far too long, but I could go on for a lot, lot longer. The point is that rarely are things perfect. I think that Framework is trying to do its best. I suggest that if anyone reading this is having this issue, you reach out to Support and work with them to achieve a resolution, Understand that the resolution may not be exactly what you wish. If you are not getting a response, you might try tagging some of the company reps here. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to look up who they are.

Be well, all

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This feels like a whole damn massive pile of overreactions. Framework is a new company. They could not have anticipated this. They are not the absolute epitome of laptop makers. This is also a rather minor issue most users won’t experience, and future users won’t experience if they buy newer boards.

Y’all need to not hold Framework to the absolute golden standard NOBODY can achieve, on a first generation product. Y’all also need to not make a mountain out of a molehill and nitpick over every tiny thing. They’re new, they’re still figuring this stuff out. If the product quality gets worse over time, that’s when you get concerned.

You just contradicted yourself.

nrp has a job. He does not have to respond to every ring and call. He’s been very transparent as is. I’m speculating, but it appears it was designed this way because they didn’t know better at the time. This has been fixed with future models.

Anyways, I think this thread has gone on for way too long repeating the same 5 things, and isn’t productive now. We should try discussing something actually useful.

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Framework must have considered this internally…we just don’t know what they’ve decided on…or maybe it’s still being considered.

I, for one, would like to offload this to someone who has a plugged-in-all-the-time use case.

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Until framework explains otherwise, there’s no need to “figure this out” since there is a standard practice in the industry of using RTC batteries that last for years, not weeks. Many of framework’s team come from the industry and we’d expect already have this knowledge. Regardless, it’s more about the way it is being handled after the discovery of the issue.

No, you cut out some important bits:

I am highlighting the fact support is given some motions to go through but don’t really have the power to address a design flaw.

Unfortunately, that is also an issue of debate as the design is the same in the 12th gen version of the board, although nrp has commented they have reduced the idle drain - still, if we do the math it’s going to be up from 2 weeks to about 4, which is a huge improvement but still way less than other laptops in the industry that last for years.

Generally this is how threads work… they try to stay on topic until resolution. It still goes because many are feeling like that don’t have resolution.

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Maybe it’s time we have an unofficial poll to see what people would like to see as the next step.

What are some of the reasonable outcome you would like to see as forward options for the poll?

…and I think this could go beyond just looking at this issue. Maybe look at it from a general product hardware issue. Somewhat similar to what Louis Rossmann said around right to repair, it’s not just about one product, one issue. It may not affect you now, for the product you got, but you would still want to have the ‘option’ for right to repair, maybe for another product, maybe for a family member…etc.

So, if we look at the ‘repair’ side of things (i.e. not throwing the board away), is there a potential option that there could be a ‘mod kit’ to over come this issue (be it a combination of software and hardware)? Something like the old days where you have mod kit for your PlayStation, or ThinkPad x220 1080p mod…etc

@Louis_Rossmann, would this be something Chris might be interested in working on as a side project…together with Framework and see if this could be fixed? Maybe a bounty for a solution?

The other thing I would like to see is for Framework to update the marketplace listing for the 11th gen board, to include details / warning about this issue.

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Rooting for AMD in the long run.

Multiple layers of Spectre and Meltdown fixes over the years have slowed down a lot of my virtualisation work systems.

Also, just want to point out that the “sell it” suggestion from Framework Support (allegedly, by a poster above) is not a solution, and if it’s a solution, it’s a lazy one at best.

If Framework really stands behind repairability and sustainability, then I believe the correct course of action is to come up with a ‘fix’ in the form of a repair or modification service to the already existing boards that are already in the wild.

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It’s like when folks have their home just 30 feet from the edge of a sea eroded cliff and people go “Why don’t you just sell it and move!”

Who do I sell it to? Spongebob?

Who wants to buy a laptop you have to keep constantly charged…unlike all the other laptop options available.

I just opened up the Framework and popped the bios battery out again. Back up and running.

Now I know why they included the screwdriver in the box…I’ll be using it a lot more than I thought.

I can see it now turning up to a customer to do some work and having to take my Framework apart in front of them to get it working again.

Customer - “Hey J isn’t this the laptop you said was amazing and fully repairable?”

Me - “Yeah, turns out not quite fully repairable!”

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Maybe Framework supply a replacement board with the recharge links to the battery socket disconnected and a proper battery? I can live with having to swap in a new one once every couple of years?

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No I was referring to coastal erosion. One day your home is 200m from the cliff. 5 years later its 30 feet…

Point is…no one wants a laptop you have to take apart every few days to kickstart back to life.

Once this gets out to the wider public, Framework second hand laptops could be worth a lot less.

Ok I think I know who/what I’m dealing with here. :thinking: :joy:

Think someone in this thread mentioned a car analogy (non-EV).

The CMOS battery is like the car’s 12v battery. Imagine that you have to jumpstart your car everytime you want to drive it? This was particular the case for old cars (old car batteries) during covid time because of the work-from-home, shop once a week, go out less, only travel within your community / short distance.

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Oh don’t, some folks really struggle with analogies! :rofl: :wink:

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If the ML1220 connector was implemented not as a clip, but as a two-pin connector…we could have just opt for a wider button battery…something like an ML2020 (same thickness as the ML1220). It has 45mAh capacity instead of 17mAh (nominal).

But of course, this isn’t a fix for why it’s draining so, seemingly, quickly.

Looking at the specs for ML1220 (from Panasonic):

It has a continuous drain of 0.03 mA. From a 100% health, and 100% charged…that means the battery should last around 23 days. Assuming the Framework laptop doesn’t drain the battery faster than that.

So, assuming that drain rate of 0.03mA…the ML2020 could last 62 days.

And, if the clip mechanism wasn’t there, there’s likely enough height to fit an ML2032…which could last for 90 days.

[quote=“Second_Coming, post:119, topic:17664”]
we could have just opt for a wider button battery[/quote]

That was my thought, a dummy battery that clips into the existing socket with a bigger battery wired to it. A sticky pad holds it in place.

However, looking at the board pictures, I reckon the existing battery was the largest they could actually fit. :thinking:

But maybe something could go under the ram area? The bit that looks like another SSD should clip in to.

Under the RAM is typically a no-go. Batteries needs to stay away from heat-generating sources / components.

Yeah but I’m willing to take the risk. It’s not a gaming PC. Someone can do temp testing I’m sure. :wink:

The existing battery is pretty close to the ram anyway.

Just want a laptop I can leave for more then a week without having to take it apart. Not too much to ask for in 2022. :joy:

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Agree. Hope Framework will have a solution for this…or at least one that can minimize the occurrence of this. In the meantime, I’m going to wait for the next gen board reviews.

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Reading your post, I believe I had a similar issue, I just posted about it also. But one thing I did do is remove the CMOS battery for about 10 seconds (inspecting the battery) and put it back in and reconnected to power adapter and it started working again. I did not have the battery charge light not come on in my situation but after doing this my Framework laptop booted.

Odd