Swollen Battery on Framework 13 After 8 Months — Refused Warranty

[dchang]

Hmm. It seems we probably would agree, we’re just talking past each other a bit.

I’ve seen charging management/protection circuits go bad slowly over time (with repeated surges) in UPS battery backup systems, which are pretty darn close to laptop charging systems.

Anyway, one way that things could fail gradually but catastrophically at the end is slight component drift. For example, I repaired one Eaton UPS where the main filter cap had been damaged such that it was sending noise into the rest of the finer circuitry. Since the damage was gradual over time, the unit appeared to work fine for a long time, but weird symptoms occurred in accelerating frequency until it blew up (luckily these are lead acid batteries, not lithium).

The filter capacitor’s capacitance and ripple had drifted over time. I soldered in a new filter capacitor but the damage that was done to the finer circuitry was permanent. The UPS was not repairable. The filter cap replacement made things better, but some of the symptoms still remained.

Note that the equipment that was attached to the UPS didn’t get damaged (at least not that I could tell). It’s kind of an analogy for the laptop situation but not quite, since the computer equipment attached to the UPS had its own protection circuitry, whereas the laptop’s innards likely would not have any protection from the battery.

[James3]

With regards to the original post in this thread.
FW have already admitted there was a problem that could cause 61W batteries to age and swell, and they have publicly stated that they will replace them, even outside the original 1 year warranty period.

61Wh battery lifetime extender functionality and warranty

With the high energy density on the 61Wh battery, leaving it at 100% state of charge for an extended period of time can shorten the lifetime of the battery. During the last few months we have seen a small number of users with 61Wh batteries that have experienced early battery swelling. After doing failure analysis with the battery manufacturer, we’ve determined that the issue can be caused by leaving the battery fixed at a high state of charge for an extended period of time. We’re releasing upda…

So, if the original poster does come back, their problem is most likely to be resolved amicably.
FW support occasionally make mistakes, emails are not a reliable form of communications, but it generally works out in the end.

[dchang]

True. Kudos to both of you for pointing this out.
The Pinecil soldering iron has a separate ground screw for this reason.

[Adrian_Joachim]

@dchang

I’ve seen charging management/protection circuits go bad slowly over time (with repeated surges) in UPS battery backup systems, which are pretty darn close to laptop charging systems.

At least in the few upses I have delth with the battery protection systems were nowhere near as sophisticated as in laptops especially the lead acid ones.

Thanks to lithium batteries being so dangerous they got extremely reliable protection systems. It’s not gonna save it from physical defects of the battery (cough note 7) or mechanical damage but they are pretty bullet resistant electrically. The can electrically disconnect themselves in multiple ways and something blowing up enough stuff to bypass that without breaking enough other stuff to not work at all is extremely unrealistic.

@dchang

Note that the equipment that was attached to the UPS didn’t get damaged (at least not that I could tell).

Well they had their own power supplies XD.

@dchang

whereas the laptop’s innards likely would not have any protection from the battery.

Definitely not as much as the other way around.

@James3

FW have already admitted there was a problem that could cause 61W batteries to age and swell, and they have publicly stated that they will replace them, even outside the original 1 year warranty period.
So, if the original poster does come back, their problem is most likely to be resolved amicably.

Also think so, it should be replaced but the whole setup with getting it from it but doing the rma themselves is a bit weird.

@dchang

The Pinecil soldering iron has a separate ground screw for this reason.

Jup though using a non cursed power supply is still advised.

Love that thing, just don’t try to put a t12 tip in there without protection XD (thanks to it being open source and having another soldering iron replacing the blown mosfet wasn’t that bad but still).

[next_to_utter_chaos]

—
Well, ctrl+u+2014 or alt+0151 for those on Windows with a numpad …

[Charlie_6]

@Adrian_Joachim

Thanks to lithium batteries being so dangerous they got extremely reliable protection systems. It’s not gonna save it from physical defects of the battery (cough note 7) or mechanical damage but they are pretty bullet resistant electrically. The can electrically disconnect themselves in multiple ways and something blowing up enough stuff to bypass that without breaking enough other stuff to not work at all is extremely unrealistic.

I had a 2000’s laptop that it’s battery suddenly failed without any sign. After more than 10years left in the darkest corner I decided to find out after I gained enough knowledge about rechargeable batteries because of my DIY drones hobby. I took it apart and I smelled se burnt PCB. It’s likely the BMS chip or a MOSFET has burned out. Interestingly all cells were at 2.4V and after I did a cycling I found the batteries only lost about 11% capacity, that’s after a decade of undervoltage plus normal use before that.

Today’s battery has better capacity but the reliability and safety have gone worse. Today most devices have “charge to 80%” and other battery preservation techniques but we still see battery swelling on a daily basis. I noticed that on recent smartphones, the “full speed charging temperature range” becomes much narrower. They also reduce current far before the voltage limit, unlike a decade ago where a almost perfect CC-CV charging is employed.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I could just be very unlucky in recent years and used devices with poor quality

@Simon_F

send us the old battery, you will recieve a new one

Do not send an old battery if it’s swelled.

@Adrian_Joachim

A single short spark should get caught by esd protection in a well enough designed product but esd protection can wear out so should still be avoided. Sending straight 240v is something else, that is continuous and will mess up stuff quite hard. Fortunately making power supplies that don’t do that got cheap enough that the really bad ones got kind of rare these days.

I have an old laptop’s internal buck boost converter damaged by a power surge, interestingly its power adapter survived.

@James3

So, if the original poster does come back, their problem is most likely to be resolved amicably.

I think it could be hilarious (and equally worrying) if OP is later confirmed to be an AI

[Simon_F]

@Charlie_6

Do not send an old battery if it’s swelled.

True

[Adrian_Joachim]

@Charlie_6

I had a 2000’s laptop that it’s battery suddenly failed without any sign. After more than 10years left in the darkest corner I decided to find out after I gained enough knowledge about rechargeable batteries because of my DIY drones hobby. I took it apart and I smelled se burnt PCB. It’s likely the BMS chip or a MOSFET has burned out.

Fried bms is rare, you’d still need speciffically fried bms and charge controller to get overcharging though.

@Charlie_6

Today’s battery has better capacity but the reliability and safety have gone worse. Today most devices have “charge to 80%” and other battery preservation techniques but we still see battery swelling on a daily basis. I noticed that on recent smartphones, the “full speed charging temperature range” becomes much narrower. They also reduce current far before the voltage limit, unlike a decade ago where a almost perfect CC-CV charging is employed.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I could just be very unlucky in recent years and used devices with poor quality

While there may be something to this it is likely also a lot of survivorship bias. I am pretty sure there are a bunch of very good cells made today, which ones they are we’ll see in 10 years when they are still going XD. There were also a lot of complete stinker cell designs but they are all dead by now. We definitely do run them a lot harder these days. The whole temperature fast charging stuff is neat, unfortunately we tend to use the better understanding of the chemistry to just run it closer to the red line.

But the market has decided it wants thin devices so here we are.

Some day I will make a custom fw 13 bottom case that’s just filled with 18650s XD

[Charlie_6]

@Adrian_Joachim

While there may be something to this it is likely also a lot of survivorship bias.

You are probably right

@Adrian_Joachim

The whole temperature fast charging stuff is neat

No, I was saying the opposite, something like older devices can charge at rated speed from 12°C to 38°C, but newer ones can only be charged at rated speed when the temperature is between 25°C to 35°C i.e they became less resilient.

@Adrian_Joachim

just run it closer to the red line

Exactly, now limit the battery charging % when full capacity is not needed is almost essential, as the battery is pushed harder

[Adrian_Joachim]

@Charlie_6

No, I was saying the opposite, something like older devices can charge at rated speed from 12°C to 38°C, but newer ones can only be charged at rated speed when the temperature is between 25°C to 35°C i.e they became less resilient.

I think that has more to do with the industry understanding the batteries better. That can however cause them to use less battery for the same thing. Better awareness of how they work is nice, using less battery run harder for the same thing is less nice.

[Alan_Pearce]

@Destroya

I noticed the em-dash and honestly concerned if the OP is not a real customer and someone created this post using AI

In fact, when you read through the first paragraph of post 1 it doesn’t flow like you would expect if a person wrote it. It definitely has the feel of machine originated to a template.

Rather reminds me of the complaints from FOSS maintainers about the AI generated bug reports they are receiving and the efforts needed to verify them and show that they are not true bugs.

[Destroya]

@Alan_Pearce

In fact, when you read through the first paragraph of post 1 it doesn’t flow like you would expect if a person wrote it. It definitely has the feel of machine originated to a template.

I felt the same as well. But ESL is a thing and I bet a lot of people use AI for checking their grammar.

Anyways,let’s go back to the topic

Still no DM from OP.

[Destroya]

no DM from OP.

[binarydigit]

Writing this on my Framework 13 AMD7, bought in December 2023, with Ubuntu-based ZORIN OS 17 installed and German keyboard layout. EM-dash could be easily generated with the [alt gr] key in combination with the regular dash:
– generated by [alt gr] + [-]
— generated by [alt gr] + [shift] + [-]

No idea if these characters are also mapped on other keyboard layouts, let alone other OSs. So it might at least be possible the em-dash was entered by the OP.

I agree with my fellow commentators that either the OP is unwilling or unable to follow company procedures regarding their IT. Their IT might probably burden employees with servicing their loaned laptops, because Framework is predestined for this kind of protocol.

The OP seems to be heavily biased against Framework and having commented out of a high level frustration and whatever expectations were not met by the FW laptop or the behavior of his company’s IT dept. The OP does not seem to be too tech savvy, when misinterpreting Framework’s 3-in-1 convenience tool as a “proprietary screwdriver”,

Without being part of any echo chamber either, I am still a satisfied and happy owner of my Framework 13. Though, I am concerned about the repeatedly reported personal experiences regarding Framework’s support being considered as “notoriously bad and attempt to avoid warranty help at all costs.” As of today, I fortunately do not have any personal experiences there.

By the way, and no recommendation intended:
When sitting at my desk, along with other devices, I charge my Framework 13 with a 240 W GaN III charger from SMEIWANR (looked up as trademark of Shenzhen Meiwangru Technology Co., Ltd.). When on the go, I charge it with an Anker 140 W GaN or a INIU 27000 mAh 140 W power bank. Never experienced any issues whatsoever. Not even in tropical environment.

I agree that Li-Ion technology is prone to have a high failure rate. Meanwhile, some airlines allow power banks as carry-on, but prohibit their in-flight usage. I certainly would appreciate a LFP battery for my FW13, even this would increase weight. If I am not mistaken, the energy density would be higher and a higher capacity would be on the sunny side – just limit capacity within airline regulations.

[Adrian_Joachim]

@binarydigit

I certainly would appreciate a LFP battery for my FW13, even this would increase weight. If I am not mistaken, the energy density would be higher and a higher capacity would be on the sunny side – just limit capacity within airline regulations.

Pretty sure lfp has significantly worse energy density both per weight and per volume.

[binarydigit]

Yeah, I was badly mistaken:
Li-Ion batteries store some 40% more energy per kilogram.

[Charlie_6]

Use NMC cell, NMC has life expectancy between LFP and LCO, and it has similar energy density as LCO, the differences are NMC has lower voltage (3.6V/cell, 4.2V fully charged) but higher capacity (in mAh) compared to LCO